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Bring Back the Mid-Game

IncubiAlchIncubiAlch
Mabinogi Rep: 1,380
Posts: 21
Member
edited January 18, 2018 in Feedback and Suggestions
Dear Nexon,
Lately, it seems as though everything you've added has been either in a hard mode dungeon/Shadow mission, or in some new impossibly hard quest mission, because of this, I see it fit to write you this letter from a Mid-game player. None of this makes me want to keep playing.
The new giant update came with nothing I could do or enjoy. The Chain skills are near impossible to obtain without shelling out a couple million gold that I do not have. Gacha's are only raising prices and killing the value of old formerly valuable items that I worked very hard to obtain. I can't enjoy living my fantasy life if you as a company only add things for the players who are more pro than I. Even the Newbies have gotten updates with fresh new looks, and teleport books that I as someone who has already been over 1k for years, cannot enjoy.
I don't want to give up on this game. I love this world that you've built. I love the rebirth system that makes me feel like someday, eventually, I will be able to do anything. I'll be as strong as those I get help from, and will be able to give help to players where are where I was. That is what I wish for the game, but as of now it looks like this won't happen.

The first problem I see, is the dwindling number of early and mid-gamers. Early players are discouraged quickly when they realize they can't be as cool or helpful as the "pros". They don't realize there are things they can do. Part-time jobs don't give the money they need, even though it's the easiest thing for them. They'll never get a nice dress by doing a 1k per day job. It would take 32 real life hours just to fill one gold bag, yet most part time jobs don't even pay that much. So what are they to do? Run a dungeon?

Dungeons have become ranked in difficulty. The easier the dungeon, the less money you can make in it. Fine, that's fair, but at low levels it takes the same amount of time to run Alby int, for a new player who could die several times per room, as it would for a pro to run a harder dungeon and not die at all. It breaks their weapons, armor, and spirits, and still they're wearing their newbie wear.

Perhaps they could buy something from a player tailor? But who trains tailoring anymore if they're not just in it for the DEX? This is where the Mid-gamers aught to shine. Yet there are no smiths, no tailors, no handicraft shops. All of Dunbarton is filled with player shops, and nearly all of them are selling items from events and gachapons. Why do you think this is? You added new manuals and materials just recently, didn't you?

Yes but as I said before, you added them to HM dungeons. I am mid game. I cannot solo a HM dungeon. Therefore smithing and tailoring are worthless to me. Even when I did recently start training these skills, I dropped, ego fed, or NPC sold every item I made. What else could I do? No one would buy them because they're blocky, badly rendered, and poor stat items. Nothing compared to the stats you can get from a Gachapon gained treasure. You have taken away one of the main things that a mid gamer has. And also there are some who came into the game, not for fighting but just to learn a craft and make some money and friends. That is now gone.

Sure, people are saying that the game is getting too easy, or boring, but you're mistaken if you think the reason is because we are all too high of level. Many of us just feel that our effort is wasted. Rewards aren't good and botting and hacking is growing. We in the mid game, just can't keep up. We're discouraged. Even if changes are made, it will be a long road to recovery for this community. We've fallen behind and many of us aren't sure how to catch up without resorting to the same methods as the botters, gacha players, and gold buyers, whom we hate so much.

So here I am, asking you to do something, and giving you the comments I've heard from so many mid-gamers.
Bring back the Crafting System. Make more things out of common leather, fine fabric, finest silk, and everything in between. We don't need new materials to make the item worth it, we only need them to have better stats. Even better looks only would be better than the badly rendered NPC sold armors that we can craft now.
Update the NPCs. Modern graphics have come a long way, and we're done with the square boobs and arms that disconnect from the torso.
Add new rewards to low level dungeons, not everything has to be rare.
Update the enchanting system. What good is a rF enchant for 1 point of HP, when I have totems with 70 HP on them? And I will never try and use a r8 enchant when it has a 60% chance of completely destroying my item.

We of the Mid-game ask you, Nexon, to realize that we are the majority. We help the beginners. We team up and conquer dungeons. We fight fully prepared in our best gear, unable to relax and use cheaper equipment like the pros who are just too strong. We spend millions on repairs. We are the biggest gold sink. We are not the problem, building us up is the solution.

Bring back the Mid-Game.

Signed,
North America Alexina Server's Frustrated Mid-Game Alchemist
YangKoete[Deleted User]ShadoeDarkpixie99SplatulatedSylviaWolfeDeamonicnoddyDanievictria

Comments

  • lceCreamlceCream
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,205
    Posts: 199
    Member
    Oh an Alchemist
    There's your problem
    GretaCrimsọnNilremShouK
  • IncubiAlchIncubiAlch
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,380
    Posts: 21
    Member
    lceCream wrote: »
    Oh an Alchemist
    There's your problem

    There's nothing wrong with being an alch. I'm a master full alchemist, and master warrior. I'm perfectly capable of handling myself and working with a team. Which is how I enjoy playing the game. I do not expect, nor should be expected to choose a class that you think does the most damage. Being an alch is part of the game, not "my problem", but thank you for your concern.
  • CaissaCaissa
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,175
    Posts: 150
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    I agree with some of these suggestions. We could use some more types of mundane craftable gear so we have more options for skill training. I don't believe this will suddenly make low level gear more desirable, however, so it will be just as hard to sell to other players as it is now. It would be reasonable for more of the NPCs to be graphically updated. Some of the enchants will still be just bad but I wouldn't mind seeing slightly better numbers on easily obtainable ones.

    I have to disagree with a few of your premises. I consider Hard Mode Shadow Missions to be midgame content. Hard Mode Advanced Dungeons are much more difficult than Hard Mode Shadow Missions. You should not be expecting to solo Hard Mode Advanced Dungeons. I know lategame players who can't solo them. From my experience the Researcher at Poulnabrone is pretty good about telling you what dungeons you might be able to clear successfully. As for shops, I think new players would tend to avoid Dunbarton shops after realizing they can't afford anything in the player shops there. If you are trying to sell low level crafted gear, Tir Chonaill would be a better shop location, assuming you set your prices to what a new player can afford.
    YangKoete
  • lceCreamlceCream
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,205
    Posts: 199
    Member
    edited January 18, 2018
    Sorry about that. Alchemy isn't bad or anything, it's just not the best at combat, which you were complaining about.

    You don't need all the chain blade skills to play it. I literally only use chain sweep and impale

    Anyone can solo adv hm dungeons given enough time and aggro management. You shouldn't expect a complete newb to solo a dungeon pros have trouble with anyway

    No even does part time jobs even before the gold nerf to them. The only one worth doing is getting holy water. That's still a decent money making option

    It seems like you just don't know how to make money. Most mid game players just spam shadow wizard with crystals. They spammed Conflict before it was nerfed

    Blacksmiths made millions off of crafting the new chain blades and the materials are cheap
    GretaNilrem
  • IncubiAlchIncubiAlch
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,380
    Posts: 21
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    Caissa wrote: »
    I consider Hard Mode Shadow Missions to be midgame content. Hard Mode Advanced Dungeons are much more difficult than Hard Mode Shadow Missions. You should not be expecting to solo Hard Mode Advanced Dungeons.
    Very Fair. When I said that, I was referring more to the HM ADV dungeons. Personal preference, I guess I just enjoy running dungeons better than Shadow missions.
    Caissa wrote: »
    As for shops, I think new players would tend to avoid Dunbarton shops after realizing they can't afford anything in the player shops there. If you are trying to sell low level crafted gear, Tir Chonaill would be a better shop location, assuming you set your prices to what a new player can afford.
    Also fair. If only Tir Chonail weren't so quickly passed over by beginners who have their first quest line quickly take them to Dunbarton to see Lorna. With this lack of a true "newbie region" it's a little harder to find a target sales audience. But that is part of Mabinogi's structure, so I don't see much that could change that.

    lceCream wrote: »
    Sorry about that. Alchemy isn't bad or anything, it's just not the best at combat, which you were complaining about.
    I'm not so much complaining about combat, as I am complaining about a lack of fun fulfilling Non-combat options.
    lceCream wrote: »
    You don't need all the chain blade skills to play it. I literally only use chain sweep and impale
    If I implied I had an issue with that, I phrased something wrong or wasn't watching what I was typing. It is the same as the mages collecting their book pages for intermediate magics, albeit a good deal harder when you consider one location being the end chest of an abyss dungeon.
    lceCream wrote: »
    No even does part time jobs even before the gold nerf to them. The only one worth doing is getting holy water. That's still a decent money making option
    I actually did do the part time jobs when I was new, which as you said, was before they nerfed them way back when. Either way I still think they could use an update.
    lceCream wrote: »
    It seems like you just don't know how to make money. Most mid game players just spam shadow wizard with crystals. They spammed Conflict before it was nerfed
    Blacksmiths made millions off of crafting the new chain blades and the materials are cheap
    Spamming shadow wizard with crystals gets to be a tedious option. I'm not big on shadow missions because there's no variety, and I don't think a game should have only one good way to make money. Also Crystal costs can add up. If you're not getting them from gachapon or aren't strong enough to use them on the right missions. It sucks to be That Guy who is just leeching the whole mission because, while you can get into Hardmode Shadow Missions, you'll only get killed or be in the way if you help. I'm not one of these players, but I've taken people through missions who always tell me they feel bad that they can't help, or because they keep dying and leave me to fight alone.
    As for the blacksmiths and making chain blades, I think that's a bit of a new situation, lining up with exactly what I was talking about that needs to be added. Chain blades are a high damage weapon with easy to obtain manuals and materials. That is what I'm talking about the Crafting System needing. Had a new talent not be released, that money making option would not have existed, but the difference is, I want a revival of the old talents, by means of the crafting system. Make weapons more about how you want your character portrayed without having to deal with weaker damage. At least it shouldn't be THAT MUCH weaker.
    Yes, fair, have some rare weapons with higher stats, but any weapons sold by an npc on average are less than a quarter of the damage of a gachapon item. As far as crafting goes, Magic Craft is the only one that I see as "got it right" because hermit staffs still more than keep up with gachapon staff/wands. But why is a Longsword 8-19 when a Bargain White Beam Sword goes all the way up to 110? Isn't that difference just too extreme? The old weapons were made for different balance between player damage and monster hp. Unless you have very high STR, they just don't work anymore. It needs an update.
    Danievictria
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 24,425
    Posts: 2,795
    Member
    I agree in general. The idea of formerly valuable doesn't bother me. So what? Unless we're talking something like Celtic weapons of super high grades, Bhafel and Langhuris armor, and anything beyond cosmetics, I don't see why I should care.

    Cosmetics and such being cheaper is a good thing.
    YangKoete
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 65,205
    Posts: 9,197
    Member
    edited January 19, 2018
    IncubiAlch wrote: »
    lceCream wrote: »
    Oh an Alchemist
    There's your problem

    There's nothing wrong with being an alch. I'm a master full alchemist, and master warrior. I'm perfectly capable of handling myself and working with a team. Which is how I enjoy playing the game. I do not expect, nor should be expected to choose a class that you think does the most damage. Being an alch is part of the game, not "my problem", but thank you for your concern.

    I don't think you know how this game works. If you only do alchemy you're going to have a pretty weak character. Here's why: https://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Stats_and_Skills The game is designed for you to explore all kinds of talents and skills, not just one. Each skill and talent adds to your stats. Carefully review the information in that link. You may want to consider getting your str, int, and will up. https://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Stats you are more than likely missing quite a bit str points.
  • lceCreamlceCream
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,205
    Posts: 199
    Member
    Update the NPCs. Modern graphics have come a long way, and we're done with the square boobs and arms that disconnect from the torso.

    Most important part
    Tired of squares too, I like them round
  • IncubiAlchIncubiAlch
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,380
    Posts: 21
    Member
    Gaea wrote: »
    IncubiAlch wrote: »
    lceCream wrote: »
    Oh an Alchemist
    There's your problem

    There's nothing wrong with being an alch. I'm a master full alchemist, and master warrior. I'm perfectly capable of handling myself and working with a team. Which is how I enjoy playing the game. I do not expect, nor should be expected to choose a class that you think does the most damage. Being an alch is part of the game, not "my problem", but thank you for your concern.

    I don't think you know how this game works. If you only do alchemy you're going to have a pretty weak character. Here's why: https://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Stats_and_Skills The game is designed for you to explore all kinds of talents and skills, not just one. Each skill and talent adds to your stats. Carefully review the information in that link. You may want to consider getting your str, int, and will up. https://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Stats you are more than likely missing quite a bit str points.

    I never said I don't have the other skills and talents. Just that I choose to play the game as an alchemist. Honestly, me being an alchemist has nothing to do with anything I said in this thread, not sure why people are getting on my case about it. I wasn't saying that I personally am incapable of fighting. In fact my character is structured very well for keeping myself and everyone else alive. I have high defense, r1 life drain, r1 lullaby, r1 rain cast, Dan 2 sand burst. Even if my damage isn't at the level of an end game player, I still can clear a room by myself in nearly every dungeon, without using Hydra which would make it far too easy or deprive my party members of their own kills. I can't clear everything quickly, but I don't die in the process.

    My point was that the game leads you to believe that you can do more than just fighting on it. A 'Fantasy Life" does not only have to include fighting monsters. Yet you can not sustain your character, feed your pets, repair your gear, on the money that a tailor could make from selling to players, because there's nothing good to sell that doesn't require a ton of fighting to get the materials.

    My abilities as an Alchemist have nothing to do with this. I am not frustrated because I'm an alchemist.
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 65,205
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    Alchemy is slow.
  • NilremNilrem
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,880
    Posts: 465
    Member
    Reminder that if crafting got an update that 90-100% of the new recipes, materials, etc will all be from high to endgame content.
    I know it would be better to have it otherwise, but considering how things in KR typically go...

    Replace updating NPCs with updating all forms of old graphics period. Old hair styles, old outfits, etc.

    If anything is to be added to low level dungeon rewards, lesser crafting mats. Like leather, silk, etc. Maybe wood boards?

    I highly doubt enchant will be revamped. Also just about anyone doing high end enchants can afford enchant protection, no need to make a fuss over rates.
    You also don't need enchants to surpass mid game. At all.

    I think the real problem to address is that the game does not explain the importance of stats very much, along with a lot of newer players trying to solo literally everything.
    When I created my current character, I surpassed the mid game super early because I knew about stat importance.
    But then I also met a total 14k player that was unbelievably weak, because he did not understand stat growth.

    Maybe on the talent selection page, add notices about what stats are needed for non beginner friendly talents like alchemy?
    Something like "This talent will not be effective without high HP, MP, and Stamina." listed above the skills.

    It would at least keep a bunch of people from trying to main alchemy super early and getting the impression of the game being way harder than it actually is.

    That and maybe listing beginner talents as Warrior, Mage, and Archery.
    The actually easy to grow/start with/understand talents.

    Besides that, it seems to be purely gold troubles I'm reading.
    Simple solution, stop trying to use high end weapons if you can't handle the repair costs.
    I've seen so many people jump right into things like beam swords and go broke trying to pay to repair them.
    Until you surpass mid game, Character stats >>>>>>>>> weapon stats. Use cheaper gear.

    Oh, and alchemy is just generally weaker, if not the weakest single talent in the game unless you really boost it a ton with proper equipment at endgame. Kinda sad really. The talent really needs a boost of some kind.
    Especially with how amazing sand burst is late game. More people need the power of pocket sand.
    IncubiAlchGreta
  • Pip-BoyPip-Boy
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,760
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    Member
    Mid-Game would probably be more raids like Girgashiy where players can't simply overpower the objective. Mabi used to have a very accessible power curve when most of your damage came from gear and aoe and crowd control weren't so widespread throughout movesets. You'd bring along a newbie, lend him a fully upgraded broadsword and have them help keep mobs busy. These days the only content giving a similar experience is Girgashiy below VHM.
  • ShouKShouK
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,735
    Posts: 824
    Member
    Eh I consider myself as mid-gamer and can do everything you claim mid-gamers can't do. Git gud? Although I guess in your case is that it seems you're adamant in using alchemy which is weak in low to mid game. Btw since you can spend millions on repair yet cannot afford the quest stuff that cost a few millions, there's definitely something wrong with your management.
    GretaNilrem
  • IncubiAlchIncubiAlch
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,380
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    Well guys, I guess I should have thought through what I was writing better. I'm reconsidering things after several comments, more so in how I phrased my issues, than as to what I see the issues as.
    I see the issues not as much about what I can or can't do, but more about the complaints I've heard most from my Mid-game friends. Most of them aren't alchemists, they're mostly warriors. So Alch isn't the issue. Stop calling it out.

    I only wear one outfit, and never change my appearance. Repairs are the only thing I need money for, however I've heard complaints about low-mid-game players feeling like they aren't really part of the community without the "fashionogi," and comments of "I'd rather just do life skills, I'm not that into fighting" which just doesn't work in mabi because you can't get fashionogi without gold, no gold without fighting, and many of the craftable goods require in dungeon rewards for materials. I also would rather spend my time gathering from sheep to sew and sell clothing, but what's the fun in making the clothing if it's not remotely worth buying as most of the available tailored goods aren't, due to their graphics having never been updated since they were first made.

    It's true that jumping straight to beam swords will break the bank, but some people feel they just can't keep up with the late gamers unless they have those weapons to compensate for their low stats; I was definitely like that for awhile. I'm not saying make all weapons as strong as beams, I'm saying make the craftable and NPC weapons a little more balanced.

    I like what Nilrem said about better informing newbies about what stats are required for each skillset. You're right, I didn't know when I first started Alch that I needed all these other stats. I've mostly fixed that, with mostly just some mage/MP raising skills to go. I don't mind fighting slowly but that's just me. I'm okay with that. Other's aren't.
  • OpalthiraOpalthira
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    Some one doesn't exploits events for millions of gold.
  • lceCreamlceCream
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,205
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    Opalthira wrote: »
    Some one doesn't exploits events for millions of gold.

    Yeah, one of the easiest ways to get gold
    Selling event items is something anyone can do

    Also beam swords are pretty much worthless. I just fergus repair them and toss them out since I get so much from events
  • EkaterinEkaterin
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,360
    Posts: 66
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    IncubiAlch wrote: »
    Lately, it seems as though everything you've added has been either in a hard mode dungeon/Shadow mission, or in some new impossibly hard quest mission, because of this, I see it fit to write you this letter from a Mid-game player. None of this makes me want to keep playing.
    The thing is, as the game progresses, what was once end-game content is now mid-game or even early-game content. When I started, Ciar/Rabbie/Rundal Advanced were high-level content, and Peaca (Norm or Basic) was for full parties of pros. Rundal Siren was solo endgame.
    IncubiAlch wrote: »
    The Chain skills are near impossible to obtain without shelling out a couple million gold that I do not have.
    A mid-level player should be able to obtain all but maybe the first Dorcha crystals on their own. IDK about the Bachram Pages, since I don't have them yet either. Still, MOST of the skills are obtained for free just by doing the quest line.
    IncubiAlch wrote: »
    Gacha's are only raising prices and killing the value of old formerly valuable items that I worked very hard to obtain.
    So, are they raising prices or killing value? Welcome to Mabi. You cannot expect the value of things to always remain high. One day Nexon WILL release it in gacha again, and that item you paid 10m for will suddenly be worth 500k due to the glut. It happens to everyone. I bought Dowra and Avelin Wigs at a time they were 5-7m. Now you can find them for 1m. COnversely, I bought 67th floor ES when they were 500k-1m and have sold the few I had left for 35-40m. Capitalism.
    IncubiAlch wrote: »
    I can't enjoy living my fantasy life if you as a company only add things for the players who are more pro than I. Even the Newbies have gotten updates with fresh new looks, and teleport books that I as someone who has already been over 1k for years, cannot enjoy.
    The game has certainly gotten a lot easier to become strong fast. If the time I spent in the first 3 years grinding was instead spent these last three years, I'd have another 15k levels. I played when 50 levels in a week was actually an achievement, and 3-week RB was usually in the 60-75 range. There are players now who started years later than me and are way ahead, due to my own recent inactivity. I'm not gonna complain about it tho.
    IncubiAlch wrote: »
    The first problem I see, is the dwindling number of early and mid-gamers. Early players are discouraged quickly when they realize they can't be as cool or helpful as the "pros". They don't realize there are things they can do. Part-time jobs don't give the money they need, even though it's the easiest thing for them. They'll never get a nice dress by doing a 1k per day job. It would take 32 real life hours just to fill one gold bag, yet most part time jobs don't even pay that much. So what are they to do? Run a dungeon?
    Even in the early days, I didn't run dungeons for money. I farmed events. One of the first things I did after starting was farm an event called "The Imp's Dream" for Wood Boards and finest Leather, which I sold to a veteran crafter (Angelwing). I made millions off that event, at a time when a million was a lot of gold. Right now for example, a newbie could farm this fishing event. Fish themselves, and pick up all the stuff other people drop. Gems, crafting mats, homestead seeds -- even potions to sell to NPCs.
    IncubiAlch wrote: »
    Perhaps they could buy something from a player tailor? But who trains tailoring anymore if they're not just in it for the DEX? This is where the Mid-gamers aught to shine. Yet there are no smiths, no tailors, no handicraft shops. All of Dunbarton is filled with player shops, and nearly all of them are selling items from events and gachapons. Why do you think this is? You added new manuals and materials just recently, didn't you?
    Dunby shops are mostly gacha trash, holy water, dyes, potions, and crafting mats. Lower-cost items. I buy loads of stuff from those shops. I also tailor for money, but I tend to sell in Belvast.

    Exactly what Handicraft items do you think people will buy? Smiths used to sell daggers and broadswords, but they've been supplanted by CRKS, etc. And you don't sell those in Dunby bc the sales limit is too low. But you are correct in your opinion that Nexon screws over the crafters. Life Skills are mostly about the stats anymore, as it's not profitable to do most crafting, if everyone did it.
  • LazyTortoiseLazyTortoise
    Mabinogi Rep: 300
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    Everything mentioned in this thread is a serious issue. Whether everyone agrees or not or even believes that these changes are irrelevant.

    The OP brought up a legitimate issue and was answered with snarky remarks and nonconstructive criticism about things he/she already knows and doesn't even give the impression they don't understand in the first post.

    Mabinogi is a dated game and it is going to take a lot more than more end game content, and flashy outfits, and (personal opinion) brain dead events to keep these new players around.

    I love that they want to keep things entertaining and fresh for veteran players, but there won't be a game to play if it can't hold a new audience.The game doesn't even look that good in the first place, although endearing, if players don't like playing the game then there's nothing to redeem it at the end of the day. Because of how fast players progress they'll probably never have the same experience as we did when the came first came out giving rise to a whole slew of different issues we wouldn't understand anyway.

    People afking in towns selling things and abusing events shouldn't make more money than someone whose actively playing the game, that makes no sense anyway.

    My apologies to anyone being sarcastic, however we really should consider the state of the game and not just portray to Nexon and Devcat that most of the community is content with them throwing hot garbage for us to spend our money on.