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The lootbox/Gacha problem

Comments

  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
    Mabinogi Rep: 12,900
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    FayeKaiba wrote: »
    Loot boxes are not a problem because it's completely up to the player to choose to buy them. If you spend all your money on something then that is completely your fault and should learn something called 'self control'. If you can't control yourselves when purchasing something in video game, then you have a problem. The company shouldn't have to suffer because of people not knowing when to stop.

    Next thing you know people are going to want to stop the sale of trading care games because that is RNG also. "Wah I blew all my money and didnt get a charizard, better blame the company and not my uncontrolling self"

    You have been Gachaing your whole like. Pokemon/YUGIOH/MTG/blindbags. ALl of those are RNG base, allof those gacha.

    Loot Boxes are a problem because it takes advantage of the type of people who don't have this self-control you speak of. You may say, well it's their fault, and you are indeed right. But that doesn't make it ok for the company to do that. Why do you think there are laws when it comes to gambling? Then you also have to consider kids play these games, not just adults. Are you seriously telling kids to have self-control? Does this game teach self-control?

    Telling people they have a problem because they can't control themselves from purchasing is honestly silly because that is the point. A person who does have control would take one look at these gacha, seeing how you can spend 100s and not even get the thing you wanted, and just not buy it. Yet, Nexon is making plenty of money because they bank on the people who don't. Do you think it's ok to take advantage of other peoples weaknesses to make money? You think that is a legitimate business practice that should be seen as ok?

    Yes, the company should have to suffer because they are the ones who are knowingly taking advantage of those who don't have this control. If they were not, then there is no good reason for the system at all. The whole point is to make it so people continually spend money till they get what they want, and I am sorry, that is just a terrible business model when it comes to customer satisfaction.

    Now don't get me wrong, I think it's fine to have loot boxes, but I don't think it's fine to advertise what you can get in those loot boxes, and then make the odds of getting those things incredibly low. Odds should also be disclosed to the purchaser at the very least. Apple just made a new guideline in their app store that now requires odds to be disclosed, and I imagine this year is going to be a big change in the industry when it comes to loot boxes. I am really curious what Nexon is going to do. We will see.

    The trading card game argument isn't very good, mainly because you can just go to specialty shops to get the exact card you want. You don't have to go with RNG.
    To a degree the same applies to Mabi, you can buy stuff in the game using gold. The issue is, in order to get enough gold to afford anything requires you to essentially buy gacha or to spend a lot of money on other items to sell. More often than not, never is worth the amount you pay. You could also just spend a lot of time grinding, but we are talking spending possibly weeks and months just to be able to afford what you want.

    Also .. people don't tend to be as invested in trading cards as online games. A trading card game doesn't really entice you at any point to continually buy more., not unless you are heavily into the game like tournaments and stuff, or being a major collector. But again, if you are you likely will be going to specialty shops, not buying card packs.
    Cigarettes and Alcohol are killing thousands of people every year....., .. and you're worried about Loot Boxes? :flushed:

    Greta
  • JulieJulie
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    Julie always show off all the lootboxes she has bought on need for speed

    hashtag

    e x p o s e d

    you mean the ones i h4ck3d?
  • DANIartsDANIarts
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,100
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    Honestly, Why are we complaining about this now?
    How long has this game been out? 2004?(I apologize if I'm wrong on the year).

    If I remember correctly, via bank card, the most you can spend is like... $100?(or something along the lines of that) every month.
    so if a person who isn't capable of stopping at $100 would then go to the store and buy KarmaKoin Cards.
    It would then be their fault, since most people would stop at $100 a month(for reasons like: too lazy to go to the store to get more, etc).

    We shouldn't blame Nexon for this, as they aren't the only people who do this type of thing, when it comes to spending money, IMVU does it, any franchise does it, Wizard101(pirate101 too), other anime MMORPG's do it too!

    So honestly, none of us should be complaining about it.
    The lootboxes/gatchas in mabi will still be legal for it IS indeed an optional thing.
    Nifanity
  • GretaGreta
    Mabinogi Rep: 45,955
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    edited January 28, 2018
    The only one to blame about lootboxes/gachas is yourself. If you can't control yourself, then that's YOUR problem.
    DANIartsFayeKaiba
  • JulieJulie
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,610
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    DANNYdani wrote: »
    Honestly, Why are we complaining about this now?
    How long has this game been out? 2004?(I apologize if I'm wrong on the year).

    If I remember correctly, via bank card, the most you can spend is like... $100?(or something along the lines of that) every month.
    so if a person who isn't capable of stopping at $100 would then go to the store and buy KarmaKoin Cards.
    It would then be their fault, since most people would stop at $100 a month(for reasons like: too lazy to go to the store to get more, etc).

    We shouldn't blame Nexon for this, as they aren't the only people who do this type of thing, when it comes to spending money, IMVU does it, any franchise does it, Wizard101(pirate101 too), other anime MMORPG's do it too!

    So honestly, none of us should be complaining about it.
    The lootboxes/gatchas in mabi will still be legal for it IS indeed an optional thing.

    the game has been released in the US in 2008, lootboxes/gachas were also meant to be a thing for f2p only games atleast with what nexon intended, people arent fighting back about this either because well, many games have been indeed shafted due to the prioritization of lootboxes, mabinogi included :)

    but that said the last few years lootboxes have been appearing in many $60 mainstream games and it has done a good job of upsetting people.

    now lootboxes and gachas that cost irl money in direct or in skme indirect way arent going to be illegal, theyre just gonna be restricted to adult games.
    DANIarts
  • DANIartsDANIarts
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,100
    Posts: 789
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    Julie wrote: »

    the game has been released in the US in 2008, lootboxes/gachas were also meant to be a thing for f2p only games atleast with what nexon intended, people arent fighting back about this either because well, many games have been indeed shafted due to the prioritization of lootboxes, mabinogi included :)

    but that said the last few years lootboxes have been appearing in many $60 mainstream games and it has done a good job of upsetting people.

    now lootboxes and gachas that cost irl money in direct or in skme indirect way arent going to be illegal, theyre just gonna be restricted to adult games.

    Thank you for correcting me on the year, I was close x'D
    As for games that FORCE you to buy lootboxes in order to progress through the game then those would be for ages 21+
    BUT for ones that are optional and don't force you to buy should be for everyone.
    I'm not even 21 yet, if it ends up being that way for ones that are optional I wont have fun with gatchas /:
    I'm very responsible with my money (i do $25-$50 every month or so, sometimes longer since I do bills and food first) and would be slightly upsetting for me /: I'd literally have to have older friends of mine buy stuff for me(giving them my money to do so) on their account in order for me to even try and enjoy a little "gambling".

    Besides, if it happens, what will mabi do? majority of people who play are middle/highschoolers and some college students who are under the age OF 21, therefore money will lower for mabi's shop, and items like clothes would probably sky-rocket even more in prices since a good majority of people wont be able to test their luck.

  • JulieJulie
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,610
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    edited January 30, 2018
    DANNYdani wrote: »
    Julie wrote: »

    the game has been released in the US in 2008, lootboxes/gachas were also meant to be a thing for f2p only games atleast with what nexon intended, people arent fighting back about this either because well, many games have been indeed shafted due to the prioritization of lootboxes, mabinogi included :)

    but that said the last few years lootboxes have been appearing in many $60 mainstream games and it has done a good job of upsetting people.

    now lootboxes and gachas that cost irl money in direct or in skme indirect way arent going to be illegal, theyre just gonna be restricted to adult games.

    Thank you for correcting me on the year, I was close x'D
    As for games that FORCE you to buy lootboxes in order to progress through the game then those would be for ages 21+
    BUT for ones that are optional and don't force you to buy should be for everyone.
    I'm not even 21 yet, if it ends up being that way for ones that are optional I wont have fun with gatchas /:
    I'm very responsible with my money (i do $25-$50 every month or so, sometimes longer since I do bills and food first) and would be slightly upsetting for me /: I'd literally have to have older friends of mine buy stuff for me(giving them my money to do so) on their account in order for me to even try and enjoy a little "gambling".

    Besides, if it happens, what will mabi do? majority of people who play are middle/highschoolers and some college students who are under the age OF 21, therefore money will lower for mabi's shop, and items like clothes would probably sky-rocket even more in prices since a good majority of people wont be able to test their luck.

    technically speaking most of those games with lootboxes are always pretty much just optional already.
  • DANIartsDANIarts
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,100
    Posts: 789
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    Julie wrote: »
    technically speaking most of those games with lootboxes are always pretty much just optional already.

    Yeah, "technically" but still, there are games that do force it which is probably why this thread is happening.
  • XiokunXiokun
    Mabinogi Rep: 11,060
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    Let's just put two or so random guaranteed rare items with gacha bundles over 25 dollars. Problem solved.
    DANIarts
  • FayeKaibaFayeKaiba
    Mabinogi Rep: 10,545
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    Greta wrote: »
    The only one to blame about lootboxes/gachas is yourself. If you can't control yourself, then that's YOUR problem.

    This. All this.
    Veylaine
  • JulieJulie
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,610
    Posts: 306
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    DANNYdani wrote: »
    Julie wrote: »
    technically speaking most of those games with lootboxes are always pretty much just optional already.

    Yeah, "technically" but still, there are games that do force it which is probably why this thread is happening.

    well, what is forcing lootboxes to you? is it the ones that still give you content from them as you play it? (regardless how ridiculously long that would take like battlefront 2)

    or the kind that makes content exclusive to lootboxes? (gachas in mabinogi actually do this)
  • FayeKaibaFayeKaiba
    Mabinogi Rep: 10,545
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    FayeKaiba wrote: »
    Loot boxes are not a problem because it's completely up to the player to choose to buy them. If you spend all your money on something then that is completely your fault and should learn something called 'self control'. If you can't control yourselves when purchasing something in video game, then you have a problem. The company shouldn't have to suffer because of people not knowing when to stop.

    Next thing you know people are going to want to stop the sale of trading care games because that is RNG also. "Wah I blew all my money and didnt get a charizard, better blame the company and not my uncontrolling self"

    You have been Gachaing your whole like. Pokemon/YUGIOH/MTG/blindbags. ALl of those are RNG base, allof those gacha.

    Loot Boxes are a problem because it takes advantage of the type of people who don't have this self-control you speak of. You may say, well it's their fault, and you are indeed right. But that doesn't make it ok for the company to do that. Why do you think there are laws when it comes to gambling? Then you also have to consider kids play these games, not just adults. Are you seriously telling kids to have self-control? Does this game teach self-control?

    Telling people they have a problem because they can't control themselves from purchasing is honestly silly because that is the point. A person who does have control would take one look at these gacha, seeing how you can spend 100s and not even get the thing you wanted, and just not buy it. Yet, Nexon is making plenty of money because they bank on the people who don't. Do you think it's ok to take advantage of other peoples weaknesses to make money? You think that is a legitimate business practice that should be seen as ok?

    Yes, the company should have to suffer because they are the ones who are knowingly taking advantage of those who don't have this control. If they were not, then there is no good reason for the system at all. The whole point is to make it so people continually spend money till they get what they want, and I am sorry, that is just a terrible business model when it comes to customer satisfaction.

    Now don't get me wrong, I think it's fine to have loot boxes, but I don't think it's fine to advertise what you can get in those loot boxes, and then make the odds of getting those things incredibly low. Odds should also be disclosed to the purchaser at the very least. Apple just made a new guideline in their app store that now requires odds to be disclosed, and I imagine this year is going to be a big change in the industry when it comes to loot boxes. I am really curious what Nexon is going to do. We will see.

    The trading card game argument isn't very good, mainly because you can just go to specialty shops to get the exact card you want. You don't have to go with RNG.
    To a degree the same applies to Mabi, you can buy stuff in the game using gold. The issue is, in order to get enough gold to afford anything requires you to essentially buy gacha or to spend a lot of money on other items to sell. More often than not, never is worth the amount you pay. You could also just spend a lot of time grinding, but we are talking spending possibly weeks and months just to be able to afford what you want.

    Also .. people don't tend to be as invested in trading cards as online games. A trading card game doesn't really entice you at any point to continually buy more., not unless you are heavily into the game like tournaments and stuff, or being a major collector. But again, if you are you likely will be going to specialty shops, not buying card packs.



    The trading card game is a good argument because there are people who are VERY heavily invested in trading cards. Infact to the point that people have whole youtube accounts to opening full boxes of pokemon cards and getting nothing. No, really I am being serious. One just has to type into youtube 'pokemon card opening' and they will be flooded with hundreds of people who spend all their money on pokemon cards and end up with nothing, and still they don't complain because they didnt get anything.

    Yes, people can go to card shops and buy the one card they want for triple the price of one 10$ card pack. If nexon was to do that. The player base would complain even more. Like for example. Pay 30$ for one pair of wings, 15$ for one outfit, 10$ for stack of training potions. People would complain so much because then if they can't afford NX, they would need to spend millions ingame to get what they wanted. And the prices wouldn't be prettym they would cost more likey 60-80m were as of late, most gacha wings have been 15m. And most outfits havent been more expensive.

    Nexon isn't taking advantage of players also because they put a cap on how much you can spend per month, same with PCgame supply. (My limit on my PCgame supply account is 800$ per month)

    The company shouldn't suffer because people can't control themselves with it comes to virtual items. Besides, if you have 'control' issues when it comes to money, then I doubt people have a stable job and more likley leeching of the government or parents. In that case, their parents should stop giving them money, or maybe they should have their funding taken away because they anyone who spends ALL their goverment funding on gaming needs to be monitored or get off their bum, get therapy and get help.
    DANIarts
  • ApollodorusApollodorus
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,665
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    Wow, people are getting weird with lootbox arguments lately. I like gachapon in general (I grew up on pokemon/yugioh/mtg cards and appreciate the randomness) and think that any bill banning children from playing games with a 'gambling mechanic' would be disastrous for the free to play market. Still I find the 'self-control' argument to be a facile and shallow one. There is a distinct difference between somebody losing control over a product sold for general consumption and people being targeted with predatory practices. Whaling is common practice amongst F2P and there is an entire industry built around milking people like that for all they are worth. This can have devastating effects on people's lives. I'd like to avoid getting into the abstract debate over the existence and scope of free will here but manipulation IS a thing, and game companies do purposely use it to prey on people.

    Now obviously just slapping a 'you must be this old to play' label on these games is naive and misses the point entirely, because predatory gaming arguably affects adults more than children. What I'd like to see is some self regulation by the gaming industry since they understand the medium better than politicians who've never picked up a controller in their lives. Making gacha rates fixed and public would be a good start, and so long as companies like Nexon were acting ethically it wouldn't hurt them. Of course even if you don't think companies should be held to any standard and should be allowed to sell whatever they want however they want soon it might actually come down to either self regulation or government regulation, so take your pick. Other countries are already regulating games like this.
    DANIarts
  • ShadoeShadoe
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,090
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    edited January 30, 2018
    I don't see any problem with making a company maintain a fixed ratio and publishing the ratio of the items in the boxes.

    I think if the law says gachas are now illegal, Nexon will recover because it's going to effect lots of games. Lots.

    But I think it's stupid to make them illegal since Western and Democratic society are basically built on people purchasing things they don't need. You might as well make it illegal for there to be advertising, gumball machines, baseball cards, and peer pressure.
    HardmuscleFayeKaiba
  • JulieJulie
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  • TeriustheGreatTeriustheGreat
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    Wtf is a loot box for real
  • XypixXypix
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,790
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    edited January 31, 2018
    Here's another good video on the subject.
    Removed. Please do not post videos that contain inappropriate language.
    I'll take the risk and post it cause why not.
  • DANIartsDANIarts
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,100
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    Julie wrote: »
    DANNYdani wrote: »
    Julie wrote: »
    technically speaking most of those games with lootboxes are always pretty much just optional already.

    Yeah, "technically" but still, there are games that do force it which is probably why this thread is happening.

    well, what is forcing lootboxes to you? is it the ones that still give you content from them as you play it? (regardless how ridiculously long that would take like battlefront 2)

    or the kind that makes content exclusive to lootboxes? (gachas in mabinogi actually do this)

    In my opinion, forcing would be what EA did (made you have to buy in order to progress through the game), As long as I have the option to buy or not buy, and still be able to progress through the game, then I'm okay with loot-boxes/gachas being around, if i'm forced to do something, i wont bother playing it or doing it.

    As for mabi and their exclusive items being in gachas, not everyone wants it, besides, do you know how expensive running a server/game is? Specially if you hire mods and people to help you with coding, just all of it is expensive(in my opinion) so having stuff like "gachas" around for people to spend their money on, helps creators make more and more games with the money spent.
    Jazmyn
  • JulieJulie
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,610
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    edited February 3, 2018
    DANNYdani wrote: »
    Julie wrote: »
    DANNYdani wrote: »
    Julie wrote: »
    technically speaking most of those games with lootboxes are always pretty much just optional already.

    Yeah, "technically" but still, there are games that do force it which is probably why this thread is happening.

    well, what is forcing lootboxes to you? is it the ones that still give you content from them as you play it? (regardless how ridiculously long that would take like battlefront 2)

    or the kind that makes content exclusive to lootboxes? (gachas in mabinogi actually do this)

    In my opinion, forcing would be what EA did (made you have to buy in order to progress through the game), As long as I have the option to buy or not buy, and still be able to progress through the game, then I'm okay with loot-boxes/gachas being around, if i'm forced to do something, i wont bother playing it or doing it.

    As for mabi and their exclusive items being in gachas, not everyone wants it, besides, do you know how expensive running a server/game is? Specially if you hire mods and people to help you with coding, just all of it is expensive(in my opinion) so having stuff like "gachas" around for people to spend their money on, helps creators make more and more games with the money spent.

    yeah but EA never forced anything because you would still obtain them through playtime anyways and EA also has bills to pay to keep the servers running

    (please dont kill me, im not trying to defend EA)
  • KimCheolsuKimCheolsu
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,625
    Posts: 127
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    edited February 3, 2018
    I just hope that if the law passes, they'll find a way to fund Mabi so that it won't be shut down. At least in a way that we can all still enjoy the game the same way, if not better.