Check out the patch notes for the September 10th update, Campfire Spirit: https://forums.mabinogi.nexon.net/discussion/23685
[NEW MILLETIANS] Please note that all new forum users have to be approved before posting. This process can take up to 24 hours, and we appreciate your patience.
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the Nexon Forums Code of Conduct. You have to register before you can post, so you can log in or create a forum name above to proceed. Thank you for your visit!

The lootbox/Gacha problem

Comments

  • ShadoeShadoe
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,090
    Posts: 241
    Member
    Xiokun wrote: »
    Let's just put two or so random guaranteed rare items with gacha bundles over 25 dollars. Problem solved.

    Then nothing would be rare. In fact, that would probably make that item the least rare item in the gacha. People don't like common items. They can't make money off them and therefore a lot of people won't buy the gacha.
  • DANIartsDANIarts
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,100
    Posts: 789
    Member
    Julie wrote: »
    yeah but EA never forced anything because you would still obtain them through playtime anyways and EA also has bills to pay to keep the servers running
    (please dont kill me, im not trying to defend EA)

    And that's understandable that EA has bills too pay, but EA did do some forcing.
    every server, game, coding, hell even people who don't do any of this, we all have bills to pay.
    we have things that do indeed need to be paid, so I still don't see why people aren't happy about this now when people have ALWAYS done this.

    Does anyone happen to remember There.com?
    Even if nobody does, I do.
    The people who made that "game"(more like a form of social media but with avatars and stuff, basically IMVU but 100x better) they ended up having to shut it down due to no funds coming in(a.k.a people weren't buying cards and items enough for them to continue funding the "game"), they ended up bringing it back up and renaming it, but now they force people to buy or do a monthly purchase in order to continue socializing and talking to friends.
    I don't know the "new" name for it, and don't really care to know since I don't want to play it anyone(it's been years, I was like... 13 when I started playing it, and met some friends that I still talk too, today).

    Point being, just don't play games if it'll force you to buy stuff, if you have the option to buy it or not buy it and still be able to play, then go for it.

  • KelpSodaKelpSoda
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,475
    Posts: 218
    Member
    edited February 4, 2018
    "oh games NEED lootboxes for uh... server costs or whatever"

    citation needed, preferably from an actual source, not kotaku or a gaming reviewer site

    i rest my case here

    more of a "how much more money can i actually get from this product without actually putting more effort into it before the target audience stops bending over" situation

    yes, believe it or not there is a limit to this, but clearly it's pretty stupid high otherwise blatant pay to win games such as mabinogi wouldnt even exist, even with the amount of hate bf2 got in pretty much every network they clearly havent reached that limit yet, so expect it to get worse since gaming is such a mainstream hobby and the lowest common denominator for gamers is going down, just look at any gaming related forum, or even these forums lul
  • DANIartsDANIarts
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,100
    Posts: 789
    Member
    KelpSoda wrote: »
    "oh games NEED lootboxes for uh... server costs or whatever"

    citation needed, preferably from an actual source, not kotaku or a gaming reviewer site

    i rest my case here

    more of a "how much more money can i actually get from this product without actually putting more effort into it before the target audience stops bending over" situation

    yes, believe it or not there is a limit to this, but clearly it's pretty stupid high otherwise blatant pay to win games such as mabinogi wouldnt even exist, even with the amount of hate bf2 got in pretty much every network they clearly havent reached that limit yet, so expect it to get worse since gaming is such a mainstream hobby and the lowest common denominator for gamers is going down, just look at any gaming related forum, or even these forums lul

    You DO realize, some creators who make games with absolutely no help at first(due to starting from scratch) DO need money and need to continue to get money in order too continue doing the job of creating and eventually getting help from others(paying them, of course)
    If you need an example of any kind, a good example would be from Yandere Simulator and I've had my hand at looking into graphics and doing a little coding of my own, you DO need the freaking funding in order to even make a game, even old computers(like the raspberry pi) costs a lot of freaking money to get it.

    Yes, companies who do already have a lot of money don't particularly NEED too do lootboxes/gachas but now-a-days, specially when more and more people actually want to help make games or learn how so they can hopefully get a job in a company, if they happen to start from scratch, you're looking at about... roughly.... $3-4,000. And to continue doing it, updating graphics, etc. that just boosts it up and you end up looking at wasting $10-15,000 hell maybe even $20,000 maybe more!

    So sometimes lootboxes are needed, and sometimes they are not, hell, sometimes you might have to sell your own creation to another game company if you can't afford to continue working on it.


    So yes hun, some games actually DO need lootboxes as well as any other source of income to continue working on the game and making things look better.

    people don't seem to realize how much money actually goes into making a game, even if a game has "horrible graphics" or "mechanics might be bad" or whatever, maybe people should stop and think before dismissing ways people can try and get a source of income(:
    ShadoeNifanity
  • KelpSodaKelpSoda
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,475
    Posts: 218
    Member
    edited February 4, 2018
    citation needed, again

    "I've had my hand at looking into graphics and doing a little coding of my own, you DO need the freaking funding in order to even make a game, even old computers(like the raspberry pi) costs a lot of freaking money to get it."

    okay, i am a parent and also a war veteran and also a doctor and also a rocket scientist, therefore my opinion is more valid

    is this how it works?

    i do find it funny that you believe your opinion weights more than even gaming reviewing sites, lulz
  • DANIartsDANIarts
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,100
    Posts: 789
    Member
    KelpSoda wrote: »
    citation needed, again

    "I've had my hand at looking into graphics and doing a little coding of my own, you DO need the freaking funding in order to even make a game, even old computers(like the raspberry pi) costs a lot of freaking money to get it."

    okay, i am a parent and also a war veteran and also a doctor and also a rocket scientist, therefore my opinion is more valid

    is this how it works?

    i do find it funny that you believe your opinion weights more than even gaming reviewing sites, lulz

    Does not mean you know anything about coding xD
    but you seem to be missing my point(: nobody cares about your personal stuff so i honestly have no clue why you said it xD

    Also, don't put words in my mouth or assume me saying what i've said makes top priority, i just know what i know(: and is putting my own 2-cents in♥

    you being a parent, war vet, doc, and an apparent "rocket scientist" does not have jack jittily squat to what is being said in this forum post xD

    if this forum post was about any of those topics, then i'd understand, but don't put in your personal stuff in something where it doesn't belong P:

    But as i said before, creating a game is very expensive, lootboxes/gachas are needed(: as well as any other source of income, i rest my case♥ ;p
  • KelpSodaKelpSoda
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,475
    Posts: 218
    Member
    wow, are you dense, that was sarcasm, but nevermind

    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

    what makes it even funnier to me, is that you believe playing in mud... oh i'm sorry "had my hand at looking into graphics and doing a little coding of my own" makes you an authority in this matter

    but even if you happened to actually be an authority in this matter (highly doubt it), i would request proof
  • ApollodorusApollodorus
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,665
    Posts: 57
    Member
    DANNYdani wrote: »
    KelpSoda wrote: »
    "oh games NEED lootboxes for uh... server costs or whatever"

    citation needed, preferably from an actual source, not kotaku or a gaming reviewer site

    i rest my case here

    more of a "how much more money can i actually get from this product without actually putting more effort into it before the target audience stops bending over" situation

    yes, believe it or not there is a limit to this, but clearly it's pretty stupid high otherwise blatant pay to win games such as mabinogi wouldnt even exist, even with the amount of hate bf2 got in pretty much every network they clearly havent reached that limit yet, so expect it to get worse since gaming is such a mainstream hobby and the lowest common denominator for gamers is going down, just look at any gaming related forum, or even these forums lul

    You DO realize, some creators who make games with absolutely no help at first(due to starting from scratch) DO need money and need to continue to get money in order too continue doing the job of creating and eventually getting help from others(paying them, of course)
    If you need an example of any kind, a good example would be from Yandere Simulator and I've had my hand at looking into graphics and doing a little coding of my own, you DO need the freaking funding in order to even make a game, even old computers(like the raspberry pi) costs a lot of freaking money to get it.

    Yes, companies who do already have a lot of money don't particularly NEED too do lootboxes/gachas but now-a-days, specially when more and more people actually want to help make games or learn how so they can hopefully get a job in a company, if they happen to start from scratch, you're looking at about... roughly.... $3-4,000. And to continue doing it, updating graphics, etc. that just boosts it up and you end up looking at wasting $10-15,000 hell maybe even $20,000 maybe more!

    So sometimes lootboxes are needed, and sometimes they are not, hell, sometimes you might have to sell your own creation to another game company if you can't afford to continue working on it.


    So yes hun, some games actually DO need lootboxes as well as any other source of income to continue working on the game and making things look better.

    people don't seem to realize how much money actually goes into making a game, even if a game has "horrible graphics" or "mechanics might be bad" or whatever, maybe people should stop and think before dismissing ways people can try and get a source of income(:

    So first a couple of videos relating to your point.





    Second though I think the claim that 'games need lootboxes' (especially as they are now) is kind of a narrow minded approach to the issue. There are plenty of alternative ways to monetize a free to play that don't heavily rely on loot boxes/gachapon. Now obviously results are going to vary from game to game so sometimes gacha is the best method, but that doesn't mean that players shouldn't speak up when it either ruins the play experience or feels like it is an unsatisfying buy. I'm not going to say that games should be free, they need money after all, but I'm also not going to defend bad products just because 'companies need to stay in business'.

    Also not talking about Mabi specifically here, just freemium games and games with loot boxes in general. Mabi's gacha system is far from the best I've seen and I'd like to see improvements but it's also not the worst.
  • DANIartsDANIarts
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,100
    Posts: 789
    Member
    DANNYdani wrote: »
    KelpSoda wrote: »
    "oh games NEED lootboxes for uh... server costs or whatever"

    citation needed, preferably from an actual source, not kotaku or a gaming reviewer site

    i rest my case here

    more of a "how much more money can i actually get from this product without actually putting more effort into it before the target audience stops bending over" situation

    yes, believe it or not there is a limit to this, but clearly it's pretty stupid high otherwise blatant pay to win games such as mabinogi wouldnt even exist, even with the amount of hate bf2 got in pretty much every network they clearly havent reached that limit yet, so expect it to get worse since gaming is such a mainstream hobby and the lowest common denominator for gamers is going down, just look at any gaming related forum, or even these forums lul

    You DO realize, some creators who make games with absolutely no help at first(due to starting from scratch) DO need money and need to continue to get money in order too continue doing the job of creating and eventually getting help from others(paying them, of course)
    If you need an example of any kind, a good example would be from Yandere Simulator and I've had my hand at looking into graphics and doing a little coding of my own, you DO need the freaking funding in order to even make a game, even old computers(like the raspberry pi) costs a lot of freaking money to get it.

    Yes, companies who do already have a lot of money don't particularly NEED too do lootboxes/gachas but now-a-days, specially when more and more people actually want to help make games or learn how so they can hopefully get a job in a company, if they happen to start from scratch, you're looking at about... roughly.... $3-4,000. And to continue doing it, updating graphics, etc. that just boosts it up and you end up looking at wasting $10-15,000 hell maybe even $20,000 maybe more!

    So sometimes lootboxes are needed, and sometimes they are not, hell, sometimes you might have to sell your own creation to another game company if you can't afford to continue working on it.


    So yes hun, some games actually DO need lootboxes as well as any other source of income to continue working on the game and making things look better.

    people don't seem to realize how much money actually goes into making a game, even if a game has "horrible graphics" or "mechanics might be bad" or whatever, maybe people should stop and think before dismissing ways people can try and get a source of income(:

    So first a couple of videos relating to your point.





    Second though I think the claim that 'games need lootboxes' (especially as they are now) is kind of a narrow minded approach to the issue. There are plenty of alternative ways to monetize a free to play that don't heavily rely on loot boxes/gachapon. Now obviously results are going to vary from game to game so sometimes gacha is the best method, but that doesn't mean that players shouldn't speak up when it either ruins the play experience or feels like it is an unsatisfying buy. I'm not going to say that games should be free, they need money after all, but I'm also not going to defend bad products just because 'companies need to stay in business'.

    Also not talking about Mabi specifically here, just freemium games and games with loot boxes in general. Mabi's gacha system is far from the best I've seen and I'd like to see improvements but it's also not the worst.

    And this! is what i'm okay with seeing.
    Yes your argument is valid, but i have also say "any other sort of income" as well, so i do agree with you that it doesn't HAVE to be lootboxes/gatchas since there's cards and VIP and other stuff too.
    THIS right here is 100% a valid argument that even I can agree/disagree on, not the trash this person just keeps saying AND AGAIN ASSUMING STUFF I SAID IS SOME KIND OF "PRIORITY" OR THAT "I KNOW EVERYTHING, LOOK AT ME" if the person knew, she can eaily research this stuff up herself instead of putting nonsense in my virtual mouth hoping for a stupid argument.
    KelpSoda wrote: »
    wow, are you dense, that was sarcasm, but nevermind

    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

    what makes it even funnier to me, is that you believe playing in mud... oh i'm sorry "had my hand at looking into graphics and doing a little coding of my own" makes you an authority in this matter

    but even if you happened to actually be an authority in this matter (highly doubt it), i would request proof

    Nifanity
  • KelpSodaKelpSoda
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,475
    Posts: 218
    Member
    edited February 5, 2018
    my argument is that your argument is a logical fallacy based on ???? (i'm struggling here, no idea what your argument is based on, thats the entire point)

    you also never asked for me to disprove it anyway, not that i would bother arguing until you provide any sort of proof

    also i'm not sure why you're making this personal, my first post wasn't even directed at you i'm just answering back
  • DANIartsDANIarts
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,100
    Posts: 789
    Member
    edited February 6, 2018
    KelpSoda wrote: »
    my argument is that your argument is a logical fallacy based on ???? (i'm struggling here, no idea what your argument is based on, thats the entire point)

    you also never asked for me to disprove it anyway, not that i would bother arguing until you provide any sort of proof

    also i'm not sure why you're making this personal, my first post wasn't even directed at you i'm just answering back

    if you want to know what my arguments are based on, literally look through the previous comments, also it is personal if you're literally starting something with me xD
    Always good to read before commenting stupid things P: that's all I have too say ^^

    also my arguments are based off of actual prices when it comes to creating, i mean, you can look this stuff up yourself, i was just saying making games is super expensive, so getting fundings can help the creator, and typically does.

    Just read previous stuff, i don't need to "provide evidence" when it's literally common knowledge, yes, some people might not know, but that's why there's sources, and if you know anyone creating a game, or know how to contact them, then asking them is good, though it's understandable if people don't know anyone who is creating a game nor know anyone who is able to let you know, but still.

    I mean, I've given you an example of someone who created and is STILL trying to implement more characters into the game, he has a twitter(i believe) just ask him how much it's costing him to make the game, he might tell you, or he might not, I don't personally know him, but i've been following the development of Yandere Simulator(a.k.a i've been watching his videos, he started from scratch, so....)

    you can always look up software, how long it takes, i'm sure there's answers out there, since even gaming companies have to keep making the game they're creating that takes years of hardwork to do.

    During highschool, I got to go in a college course which gives you 3 college credits for 1 semester.
    during me going to the college every day for a semester, I picked computer networking/hands on. Basically there I got to learn about the raspberry pi as well as how to make your own website from scratch, even got to learn how to start making a game(using the raspberry pi, so all the coding was very much outdated) anyways, they show you certain stuff as well as the prices, Even if i never went there, i wouldn't been curious considering I, myself, have been wanting to create a game of my own.

    Just trust me on this when I say it takes a lot of money as well as hours/days/ even years to make a game.

    If you want proof so badly though, just look it up, that's literally all I can say.
    But there was never any need in being sarcastic with what i have previously said.
  • DANIartsDANIarts
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,100
    Posts: 789
    Member
    edited February 6, 2018
    Q: How much does it cost to make a video game?
    A: The biggest, most polished games can cost hundreds of millions. Star Wars: The Old Republic, an online game released in 2011, is reputed to have cost between $150 million and $200 million. Grand Theft Auto V, which came out two years later, reputedly cost $265 million. (Sep 24, 2014)
    Q: How much does it take to make a video game?
    A: Wii games require about $5-10 million in the average case, including marketing costs. He asserts PS3 and X360 games need much more resources, from $20 million up to a staggering $50 million with sales of 1.3 to 1.5 million units to make money on them.
    Q: How much does it cost to make a GOOD game?
    A: These can cost hundreds of millions. Analyst estimates place GTA V's combined development and marketing budget at over US $265 million, which would make Grand Theft Auto V the most expensive game ever made.
    Q: How much does it cost to make a PS4 game?
    A: During the PlayStation 2 console cycle, the average console game cost between $5 and $10 million to develop, a steep increase from the $800,000 to $1.7 million cost of developing for the original PlayStation. The average PlayStation 3 game, meanwhile, costs between $18.8 million and $28.2 million to develop.
    Q: what was the most expensive game ever made?
    A: MOST EXPENSIVE VIDEO GAMES OF ALL TIME. Destiny cost a staggering $500 million (£310 million) to make and is the world's most expensive video game. Grand Theft Auto V, which launched last year, cost $265 million (£165 million).


    These are OLD Q's and A's but they are there.
  • KelpSodaKelpSoda
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,475
    Posts: 218
    Member
    funny because none of those q&a points towards lootboxes, just that games are expensive, and that's not the point of this thread
  • DANIartsDANIarts
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,100
    Posts: 789
    Member
    KelpSoda wrote: »
    funny because none of those q&a points towards lootboxes, just that games are expensive, and that's not the point of this thread

    Exactly my point though, games are expensive, so lootboxes/gachas are very much needed, just like any other form of payment(Game cards, VIP's, etc).
  • LiberateLiberate
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,915
    Posts: 138
    Member
    edited February 6, 2018
    Games are not expensive. Advertising is expensive. Also to another point out, yanderedev is a terrible example because he's making more money at not making a game than just simply releasing it, and not because gamedev is expensive, he's just simply milking patreon.

    Nifanity
  • DANIartsDANIarts
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,100
    Posts: 789
    Member
    Liberate wrote: »
    Games are not expensive. Advertising is expensive. Also to another point out, yanderedev is a terrible example because he's making more money at not making a game than just simply releasing it, and not because gamedev is expensive, he's just simply milking patreon.


    games are expensive e-e
    specially if it's an online game, yes, they are expensive T:
  • LiberateLiberate
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,915
    Posts: 138
    Member
    edited February 6, 2018
    DANNYdani wrote: »

    games are expensive e-e
    specially if it's an online game, yes, they are expensive T:

    The cost in making games have been stagnant, and actually have been on a steady decline on use of resources with cheaper methods to make video games with ease of access game engines. If video games were expensive as you say to make, then the indie dev scene wouldn't have ever been a thing, but at the moment it shows it's a fast growing industry. As for online games, it's also not that expensive to maintain, server costs are very minimal, and development cost is also average at best depending what the budget is like. There was once a lot of large and experimental MMOs in the past, but have all been drowned out due to competition and felt that it wasn't profitable anymore. But does this mean MMOs are too expensive to run? Not really, lot of those MMOs revived through emulation and backwards engineering (private servers) which require just as much programming finesse as it would to make an actual game, and they do pretty fine. Sometimes, these developers have active development for their own updates to keep things fresh or at least in working condition for newer hardware and software.
  • TeriustheGreatTeriustheGreat
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,660
    Posts: 105
    Member
    Guys... just don't buy them. Problem solved.
    DANIartsGretaFabeolaNifanity
  • CiriCiri
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,185
    Posts: 63
    Member
    The main reason why EA got so much heat was due to the fact you have to buy the game and grind at least 100+ hours unlocking stuff one at a time so that more people will be tempted to buy their "optional" loot boxes. Hell EA has the balls to lock you out of content till you buy their season pass which should've been included in the base game to begin with,

    Mabi on the other hand is different because it's f2p. Players aren't obligated to buy the game because its free or even sub and the gachas are optional (as in we're not barred from content either if we don't buy them); however, the issue with nexon is that they pump one gacha to another stacking on another "limited-time" gacha.

    What people do with their money in mabi is their business, the main problem; however though is that not only are these lootboxes pricey with the worst rng; the servers are laggy and most of the bugs and glitches are still there since years..in addition to that, nexon customer service is utter garbage. So where is all that money going to? Recycling garbage events and pumping more gachas.