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Thoughts On G21? (Content And Story)

Comments

  • IyasenuIyasenu
    Mabinogi Rep: 24,265
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    Speaking of Merlin, I liked how there was text if you decided to check the tent instead of talking to Merlin for the quest.

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    BlankeyeKingofrunesImaizumiWolfandWolf
  • HellkaizerHellkaizer
    Mabinogi Rep: 11,305
    Posts: 1,066
    Member
    Blankeye wrote: »
    Gosh reading Altam discourse is the best popcorn material ever.

    imo you can like or dislike any character for subjective reasons but I'm a bit tired of people labeling characters as 'objectively bad' or at least implying it by saying "x has only y going for them and only exists for fanboys/fangirls)" like everyone will have their own reasons for liking or disliking a character and dang I'll be the one to tell you right now you are allowed to hate a character without anyone making you feel bad about hating that character but can you maybe do the people who like that character the same courtesy? I like Altam despite he flaws and god he certainly has a lot of them but don't tell me the only reason that I or anyone else who likes him is "just for his looks" or "just to appeal to fangirls" like come on and get over yourself. You can have your opinions and voice them but those kinds of 'objective' comments are really rude.

    Anyway I actually like all the knights, Talvish is the best written knight imo despite not being my favorite (he's the most complex and least trope-y). He genuinely cares about the Milletian and seems to really do anything in his power to protect them. His way of going about things can be a little sketchy but I think his personality is very "the end justifies the means" and will bend the rules if he knows it is for the greater good.
    Llywelyn is amusing and great and balances Altam out well and puts him in his place which I think he deserves since I'm pretty sure he needs to learn that people (ie the Milletian) and not infallible and can fail and make mistake just like anyone else. Plus his snark and sarcasm is welcome in the group dynamic.
    Avelin is a great voice of reason and I like how we finally got to see the parts that makes her vulnerable, it made her a more relatable character. Showing that even the people who pretend to be strong and put together can still have insecurities.
    Pihne is sweet and gentle and a group of hard-knock knights needs someone like that once in a while to soften the atmosphere. She dealt with a lot of very difficult things, as have pretty much all the knights from the looks of it, but she overcame it and left as a stronger person. I think her presence is both comforting to Caswyn and to Avelin, which helps the flow of the group.
    Caswyn is more serious in this gen, wearing his armor properly and not complaining about everything. He's shown character development from G20 which is really cool!! That's good continuity! Though from the post-part 1 Caswyn laying around Avalon camp, he's still got a bit of his old self inside, which is welcome, since he's a big doof.
    Lastly, Altam is definitely overenthusiastic and unprofessional. But throughout this story he's slowly growing in maturity and strength, overcoming demons and looking to the Milletian for inspiration. Yes, he comes on strong. Yes, he can get in the way of things but the other knights, even Avelin, care deeply for him because they know he means well and want to see him shine and grow, because they understand the potential he has, and with the help of everyone, Altam will become the hero that he dreams of being. It's a clumsy ride to that point, but he'll get there. He's NOT useless and he has just as good of a reason to be there as anyone else. He's happy-go-lucky and excitable, but he certainly looks like deep down he hates (or hated) himself a lot. His overwhelming energy and positivity is most likely a cover for that, the same way Pihne covered up her scars in G20 with a fake smile. What matters is that that fake smile eventually turned into a real one by the end, and I think the same will happen for Altam.
    I can understand why anyone would find Altam, or any of the other knights annoying and unlikable because it's a matter of personal taste and that's totally fine.
    However, in the end, that's all it is. Subjective taste. Hate any character. Like any character. What does it matter. Stop putting down other people for who they like and dislike. You aren't better than them just because you don't "fall into the mass crowd of fangirls/boys who worship Altam". You're on a pretty high horse for acting that way.

    I can dislike a character because I think the way his traits and plot are used feel like bait to a certain demographic. I don't think the fans are like that and I apologize if anything I've said has come across that way. I just think Altam is off-putting because it feels like that's the intention of his personality, since his story is lacking depth imo. It's awkward trying to like a character if the story tells me how to feel about them constantly. I'd like to make my own opinion and have the story support that ideal. Any dialogue that was tough love for Altam didn't progress the story. Not until the slap. I had to treat him like a best friend even if I was put off by how strong he was clinging onto me. The more the story tells me why I'm supposed to care, the less I want to because it feels like they couldn't think of an event or dialogue to write to make me feel this on my own. I think I would've liked him a lot more if I could've told him to calm down with looking up to my character and using me as inspiration. Especially since he seemed to jump from character to character with that outlook throughout G19. First it was the Millitain, then it was Talvish, then it was Pihne, now it's the Elder(though I can understand the Elder preceding over everyone). It made the excitement he felt over the Millitain not feel as genuine when every other character in the story was just as amazing, which made interacting with him feel forced. You can see how far the rabbit hole goes from there.
    Besides, wouldn't you say feeling like a character relies on a trope or a certain outlook on them in order to like them is inherently bad? Obviously you can't please everyone. But the idea still stands that a character that feels like there's no depth beyond "why I'm supposed to like them"(you can use sad backstories to make me feel bad for not liking them too, which adds to the distaste) makes them feel flat. It's nothing to do with the fans, just how the character is perceived. That's why, to me at least, he comes across as one of the types of characters that are clearly meant only to please.

    I'm sorry if you took offense to any of that. I never meant the text to be about you or the fans of him in general. Just my outlook on his character(or rather, lack of imo).
    BlankeyeImaizumiTwelie
  • BlankeyeBlankeye
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,540
    Posts: 159
    Member
    edited June 20, 2018
    Hellkaizer wrote: »
    I can dislike a character because I think the way his traits and plot are used feel like bait to a certain demographic. I don't think the fans are like that and I apologize if anything I've said has come across that way. I just think Altam is off-putting because it feels like that's the intention of his personality, since his story is lacking depth imo. It's awkward trying to like a character if the story tells me how to feel about them constantly. I'd like to make my own opinion and have the story support that ideal. Any dialogue that was tough love for Altam didn't progress the story. Not until the slap. I had to treat him like a best friend even if I was put off by how strong he was clinging onto me. The more the story tells me why I'm supposed to care, the less I want to because it feels like they couldn't think of an event or dialogue to write to make me feel this on my own. I think I would've liked him a lot more if I could've told him to calm down with looking up to my character and using me as inspiration. Especially since he seemed to jump from character to character with that outlook throughout G19. First it was the Millitain, then it was Talvish, then it was Pihne, now it's the Elder(though I can understand the Elder preceding over everyone). It made the excitement he felt over the Millitain not feel as genuine when every other character in the story was just as amazing, which made interacting with him feel forced. You can see how far the rabbit hole goes from there.
    Besides, wouldn't you say feeling like a character relies on a trope or a certain outlook on them in order to like them is inherently bad? Obviously you can't please everyone. But the idea still stands that a character that feels like there's no depth beyond "why I'm supposed to like them"(you can use sad backstories to make me feel bad for not liking them too, which adds to the distaste) makes them feel flat. It's nothing to do with the fans, just how the character is perceived. That's why, to me at least, he comes across as one of the types of characters that are clearly meant only to please.

    I'm sorry if you took offense to any of that. I never meant the text to be about you or the fans of him in general. Just my outlook on his character(or rather, lack of imo).

    I think your thoughts on your dislike for Altam are incredibly well-articulated and completely reasonable and understandable. If you aren't keen on a character but the story is forcing the 'you' of the story to coddle said character and reinforce their bad habits, that is definitely going to leave a bad taste in your mouth. I'm pretty sure Altam's character was doomed to be completely polarizing due to the narrative of the story, since if you really like him up front, the fact your character is fond of him too will help reinforce that like you have for him, while if you don't like his type of character, the fact that your character is written to like him will only further your annoyance to him. It's really disappointing that we can't shape our own character's opinion as much. This gen we have a few more opportunities but the past two gens have been pretty clear-cut Altam coddling. I like Altam's character for a lot of reasons, but I think that has a lot to do with my personal taste in characters, since I've always liked the happy-go-lucky, megadere types like him, and the fact he's like the first person to actually recognize and appreciate the Milletian for all the stuff they've done instantly resonated with me. I thought, "Hey! I actually really inspired someone! He wants be be a hero because of me! I want to cheer him on too!" If Altam's character was written in order to be likeable, which I'm entirely certain it was, it worked on me, and a bunch of others, and that's totally fine I think, if it worked so well, it means it was executed well. But obviously it won't work on everyone. Especially people who can see through that method of writing. And that's why Altam's character is completely polarizing.
    I've just heard far too many times comments along the lines of "the only reason people like Altam is because of his looks/he's cute/he's there to satisfy fangirls/etc" and that's completely wrong. Generalizing all fans of a character is unfair. Everyone has their own reason for liking him. Hell I bet there ARE a bunch of Altam fans who like him for those reasons, but to throw everyone into the same camp and make it seem like they're all just "Altam obsessed sheep" is really rude. That's my two cents.
    Thank you for being very mature and reasonable in your reply. I think you bring up a lot of great points. c:
    Hellkaizer
  • KingofrunesKingofrunes
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,515
    Posts: 119
    Member
    Iyasenu wrote: »
    Speaking of Merlin, I liked how there was text if you decided to check the tent instead of talking to Merlin for the quest.

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    OMG. I can't believe I missed such an awesome gem. Thank you for sharing this.
    Imaizumi
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,125
    Posts: 661
    Member
    Iyasenu wrote: »
    Speaking of Merlin, I liked how there was text if you decided to check the tent instead of talking to Merlin for the quest.

    8b845130f0.png
    b3ee826bd9.png
    8d6ecb22f7.png

    OMG. I can't believe I missed such an awesome gem. Thank you for sharing this.

    I really dig that the Aces are getting some pretty good characterization, the sagas always made them feel like cardboard cutouts. I also love the moment you get to spend with him since you really get to connect and get a feel that he's a person rather than a character.
    GretaTeasesKingofrunesBlankeyeChizuki
  • TrythisTrythis
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,870
    Posts: 153
    Member
    Greta wrote: »
    He shouldn't have trained next to cliff lmao. Still his fault. Altam should feel zero guilt.

    But when i think about it... Why do i care? Altam is for fangirls, i don't need him.

    Technically you did, but practically you only just mentioned them so it's meh

    And did you just admit to trolling? "I see my bait worked well this time"
    Senyuni
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,125
    Posts: 661
    Member
    On the topic of Altam and his teacher, I'm in the camp that says this was just an unfortunate accident. By all accounts controlling divine power requires a certain mindset so his teacher taking him to the waterfall might have been what the Knights used to help focus trainees. Remember, Altam is consider young to be promoted to the position of knight, implying massive potential and power on his part. In fact the teacher was taken surprise by the amount of output Altam had when he lost control of the power and had trouble helping Altam regain control.

    Also I love how people just immediately focus blame on the characters rather than try to empathize with the character's plight in that situation.
  • GretaGreta
    Mabinogi Rep: 49,315
    Posts: 6,955
    Member
    What about Llewelyn? I'm sure he knows something VEEEERY important and it seems that he has some level of knowledge about Avalon, but remains silent most of the time. And it seems like he's the same age as Altam too. Maybe his Spell Book provides him all the information he needs? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm....
    Imaizumi
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,125
    Posts: 661
    Member
    Greta wrote: »
    What about Llewelyn? I'm sure he knows something VEEEERY important and it seems that he has some level of knowledge about Avalon, but remains silent most of the time. And it seems like he's the same age as Altam too. Maybe his Spell Book provides him all the information he needs? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm....

    Oh this guy knows A LOT more than he lets on, he even mentions that the player character's name appears on some ancient tapestry and records coming down. (No doubt the Elder left somethings behind). There's also the fact that he's suppose to be part of the intelligence unit so it means that he's privy to secrets of the order that even some of the higher ranking knights would not be given access to.
  • IyasenuIyasenu
    Mabinogi Rep: 24,265
    Posts: 2,887
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    Anyone remember that Pre-G19 event involving the Crystal Bears and the Diary Pages?
    Page 1:
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    Page 2:
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    I can't think of which of the Alban Knights from the current day this would be about, so ever since G20, I was thinking it was one of the old Knights, maybe even the Elder.

    Ever since the first part of G21, and showing the old knights who sealed Avalon, I started thinking it was one of them, but what's everyone else's thoughts on this?
    WolfandWolf
  • KingofrunesKingofrunes
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,515
    Posts: 119
    Member
    I don't know,
    Iyasenu wrote: »
    Anyone remember that Pre-G19 event involving the Crystal Bears and the Diary Pages?
    Page 1:
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    Page 2:
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    Page 3:
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    Page 4:
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    I can't think of which of the Alban Knights from the current day this would be about, so ever since G20, I was thinking it was one of the old Knights, maybe even the Elder.

    Ever since the first part of G21, and showing the old knights who sealed Avalon, I started thinking it was one of them, but what's everyone else's thoughts on this?

    I don't know, I disagree this has anything to do with the knights. This sounds like it's one of the followers of the prophets. The people who willingly follow the prophets see them as divine after all.
    Imaizumi
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,125
    Posts: 661
    Member
    I don't know,
    Iyasenu wrote: »
    Anyone remember that Pre-G19 event involving the Crystal Bears and the Diary Pages?
    Page 1:
    f146005335.png

    Page 2:
    4a4f94d155.png

    Page 3:
    49ae9c0898.png

    Page 4:
    67fc287d39.png

    Page 5:
    1f1a462c95.png

    Page 6:
    e807362fa1.png

    Page 7:
    2aa5adbfc4.png

    I can't think of which of the Alban Knights from the current day this would be about, so ever since G20, I was thinking it was one of the old Knights, maybe even the Elder.

    Ever since the first part of G21, and showing the old knights who sealed Avalon, I started thinking it was one of them, but what's everyone else's thoughts on this?

    I don't know, I disagree this has anything to do with the knights. This sounds like it's one of the followers of the prophets. The people who willingly follow the prophets see them as divine after all.

    These are not from any of the divine Knights, these are the people that are following the prophets that oppose Aton. The dairy describes the thoughts and feelings of the people that get turned into Girgashiy. In short, the prophets promise something, use some kind of divine power, people start praying, and then over time they become corrupted and transform into Apostles. That and Apostle power is pretty corrupting even if you don't believe, once you've been exposed to it, it'll worm its way into your being.

  • IyasenuIyasenu
    Mabinogi Rep: 24,265
    Posts: 2,887
    Member
    GTCvActium wrote: »
    I don't know,
    Iyasenu wrote: »
    Anyone remember that Pre-G19 event involving the Crystal Bears and the Diary Pages?
    Page 1:
    f146005335.png

    Page 2:
    4a4f94d155.png

    Page 3:
    49ae9c0898.png

    Page 4:
    67fc287d39.png

    Page 5:
    1f1a462c95.png

    Page 6:
    e807362fa1.png

    Page 7:
    2aa5adbfc4.png

    I can't think of which of the Alban Knights from the current day this would be about, so ever since G20, I was thinking it was one of the old Knights, maybe even the Elder.

    Ever since the first part of G21, and showing the old knights who sealed Avalon, I started thinking it was one of them, but what's everyone else's thoughts on this?

    I don't know, I disagree this has anything to do with the knights. This sounds like it's one of the followers of the prophets. The people who willingly follow the prophets see them as divine after all.

    These are not from any of the divine Knights, these are the people that are following the prophets that oppose Aton. The dairy describes the thoughts and feelings of the people that get turned into Girgashiy. In short, the prophets promise something, use some kind of divine power, people start praying, and then over time they become corrupted and transform into Apostles. That and Apostle power is pretty corrupting even if you don't believe, once you've been exposed to it, it'll worm its way into your being.

    Maybe it was the diary of an Alban Knight getting influenced by the Prophets.

    I mean, I guess it couldn't have belonged to one of the knights from back in the day because Kristell mentions seeing someone who could've been the author of the diary.

    7e45019590.png
    c9dc7bd385.png
    Though if it was just a regular person being influenced by the Prophets, why would there be Knights looking for them?
    It sounds like the man and woman in armor could've been Avelin and Altam or Talvish, though wouldn't they be more concerned with finding the Prophets, rather than their followers, unless the person in question was also a Knight?

    Then again, the timeline in Mabi's weird.
    I'm thinking of the part where he talks about the animal of Blago Prairire "in the aftermath" springing to life.
    Aftermath of what?
    WolfandWolf
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,125
    Posts: 661
    Member
    Iyasenu wrote: »
    GTCvActium wrote: »
    I don't know,
    Iyasenu wrote: »
    Anyone remember that Pre-G19 event involving the Crystal Bears and the Diary Pages?
    Page 1:
    f146005335.png

    Page 2:
    4a4f94d155.png

    Page 3:
    49ae9c0898.png

    Page 4:
    67fc287d39.png

    Page 5:
    1f1a462c95.png

    Page 6:
    e807362fa1.png

    Page 7:
    2aa5adbfc4.png

    I can't think of which of the Alban Knights from the current day this would be about, so ever since G20, I was thinking it was one of the old Knights, maybe even the Elder.

    Ever since the first part of G21, and showing the old knights who sealed Avalon, I started thinking it was one of them, but what's everyone else's thoughts on this?

    I don't know, I disagree this has anything to do with the knights. This sounds like it's one of the followers of the prophets. The people who willingly follow the prophets see them as divine after all.

    These are not from any of the divine Knights, these are the people that are following the prophets that oppose Aton. The dairy describes the thoughts and feelings of the people that get turned into Girgashiy. In short, the prophets promise something, use some kind of divine power, people start praying, and then over time they become corrupted and transform into Apostles. That and Apostle power is pretty corrupting even if you don't believe, once you've been exposed to it, it'll worm its way into your being.

    Maybe it was the diary of an Alban Knight getting influenced by the Prophets.

    I mean, I guess it couldn't have belonged to one of the knights from back in the day because Kristell mentions seeing someone who could've been the author of the diary.

    7e45019590.png
    c9dc7bd385.png
    Though if it was just a regular person being influenced by the Prophets, why would there be Knights looking for them?
    It sounds like the man and woman in armor could've been Avelin and Altam or Talvish, though wouldn't they be more concerned with finding the Prophets, rather than their followers, unless the person in question was also a Knight?

    Then again, the timeline in Mabi's weird.
    I'm thinking of the part where he talks about the animal of Blago Prairire "in the aftermath" springing to life.
    Aftermath of what?

    The Alban Knights don't operate openly like normal administrative functions, they are extremely secretive. There's also the fact that people TURN into Apostles, if the Knights are not tracking active worshippers of the prophet then there's seriously something wrong with the Knights. Basically, this person is being tracked and hunted by the Knights as a possible connection to the prophets, think of it like this, the person is a drug user, and the prophets are the suppliers, the Knights are a law enforcement agency tracking the suppliers.
  • SollSoll
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,090
    Posts: 139
    Member
    I think i remember in g19, Avelin and Altam saying the third member of their unit got turned into an apostle. Maybe that's the person who the diary belonged to?
  • GretaGreta
    Mabinogi Rep: 49,315
    Posts: 6,955
    Member
    edited June 21, 2018
    GTCvActium wrote: »
    Iyasenu wrote: »
    GTCvActium wrote: »
    I don't know,
    Iyasenu wrote: »
    Anyone remember that Pre-G19 event involving the Crystal Bears and the Diary Pages?
    Page 1:
    f146005335.png

    Page 2:
    4a4f94d155.png

    Page 3:
    49ae9c0898.png

    Page 4:
    67fc287d39.png

    Page 5:
    1f1a462c95.png

    Page 6:
    e807362fa1.png

    Page 7:
    2aa5adbfc4.png

    I can't think of which of the Alban Knights from the current day this would be about, so ever since G20, I was thinking it was one of the old Knights, maybe even the Elder.

    Ever since the first part of G21, and showing the old knights who sealed Avalon, I started thinking it was one of them, but what's everyone else's thoughts on this?

    I don't know, I disagree this has anything to do with the knights. This sounds like it's one of the followers of the prophets. The people who willingly follow the prophets see them as divine after all.

    These are not from any of the divine Knights, these are the people that are following the prophets that oppose Aton. The dairy describes the thoughts and feelings of the people that get turned into Girgashiy. In short, the prophets promise something, use some kind of divine power, people start praying, and then over time they become corrupted and transform into Apostles. That and Apostle power is pretty corrupting even if you don't believe, once you've been exposed to it, it'll worm its way into your being.

    Maybe it was the diary of an Alban Knight getting influenced by the Prophets.

    I mean, I guess it couldn't have belonged to one of the knights from back in the day because Kristell mentions seeing someone who could've been the author of the diary.

    7e45019590.png
    c9dc7bd385.png
    Though if it was just a regular person being influenced by the Prophets, why would there be Knights looking for them?
    It sounds like the man and woman in armor could've been Avelin and Altam or Talvish, though wouldn't they be more concerned with finding the Prophets, rather than their followers, unless the person in question was also a Knight?

    Then again, the timeline in Mabi's weird.
    I'm thinking of the part where he talks about the animal of Blago Prairire "in the aftermath" springing to life.
    Aftermath of what?

    The Alban Knights don't operate openly like normal administrative functions, they are extremely secretive. There's also the fact that people TURN into Apostles, if the Knights are not tracking active worshippers of the prophet then there's seriously something wrong with the Knights. Basically, this person is being tracked and hunted by the Knights as a possible connection to the prophets, think of it like this, the person is a drug user, and the prophets are the suppliers, the Knights are a law enforcement agency tracking the suppliers.

    Ahhh yes. I think i saw one of G21 images that seemed like Altam becoming an Apostle or something? He also acted somewhat weird during Part 1, he almost looked too delusional/paranoid for me. If i remember correctly, Pihne was acting moody too before she turned into Apostle.
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,125
    Posts: 661
    Member
    Soll wrote: »
    I think i remember in g19, Avelin and Altam saying the third member of their unit got turned into an apostle. Maybe that's the person who the diary belonged to?

    The prophets are not too into corrupting the Knights, they usually prefer to straight up murder them. Pihne was corrupted because she was already infected prior to being a Knight and receiving Knight training. Also I think their 3rd member was just killed in action, after all, the prophets are not weak opponents.
  • KttyKtty
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,080
    Posts: 878
    Member
    Iyasenu wrote: »
    Speaking of Merlin, I liked how there was text if you decided to check the tent instead of talking to Merlin for the quest.
    8b845130f0.png
    b3ee826bd9.png
    8d6ecb22f7.png

    I had clicked on it too. I loved how they added that little bit of dialog. That's the kind of little details that keep a game interesting I think.
    Kingofrunes
  • EmerisEmeris
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,120
    Posts: 134
    Member
    I loved seeing Merlin get involved, and it was nice to see acknowledgment of us helping Eiren.
    He's my favorite NPC, so I was so happy to see him come out of nowhere!
    I wasn't expecting to see Morrighan and Cichol again either, although I wish there was a bit more info on the items that they gave us.
  • KingofrunesKingofrunes
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,515
    Posts: 119
    Member
    edited June 21, 2018
    Emeris wrote: »
    I loved seeing Merlin get involved, and it was nice to see acknowledgment of us helping Eiren.
    He's my favorite NPC, so I was so happy to see him come out of nowhere!
    I wasn't expecting to see Morrighan and Cichol again either, although I wish there was a bit more info on the items that they gave us.
    It's called Goddess Feather and it's a Falias Treasure. Gives you Movement Speed increase