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Zunqivo

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Zunqivo
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  • Give Players More Mobility

    Cho wrote: »
    You're touching on something I've been thinking about for a while but it feels like you want Mabi devs to go all in towards changing the combat vs trying to preserve the old style.

    You're comparing Mabi to League where League plays more like a Diablo-esque game and Mabinogi's roots are from a more slow/methodical playstyle. When you show your concept of enemy magic and attacks with telegraphs, it moves farther away from what Mabi was originally.

    You say that the gray wolves aren't interesting but they are relative to the way the game was. The gimmick to wolves is that they counter a lot so you should attack them with Icebolt or a ranged attack to break their counter. If you got countered, you could learn or gain knowledge of the counter skill. It also showed that, because some enemies circle around you, not all enemies attack you right away, with the same attack over and over, like spiders. So unless you went to the school and learned icebolt, bought arrows and a bow, or found and did the quest to learn windmill, you had to wait for the wolves to decide to stop countering. This is all considering you were new and not being fed information from another more experienced player.

    With enemies having exclusive telegraphed attacks, the game moves farther from the concept of enemies and players sharing a moveset. We already took a leap from that concept when they changed to the instant load-time dynamic combat system.

    ...

    The game has changed significantly. And, as the game changed over the years, so has the MMORPG audience. Mabinogi's combat system, both Pre-Genesis and Post-Genesis, have their problems, both of which stem from the fact that fighting enemies isn't fun. Whether you're a new player using the exact same strategy to kill early-game mobs without changing a thing until you reach Alban Knights Training Grounds and you get destroyed over and over, or an end-game player with multiple Erg 50s using Flame Burst to attack mobs without giving them a chance to fight back or ignoring all mechanics to focus purely on DPS with Knuckles, fighting enemies is a chore rather than a fun time.

    Think about this, if you were playing Pre-Genesis, did you ever fight enemies like a Bear for fun after the first time you killed one? What about Dungeon rooms, did you defeat every single enemy that spawned with the orbs? Or did you want to run past them? Same with Mimic pits or the Mimic corner rooms. Yeah, it was fun for the first few times, but combat was and still is extremely tedious.

    The way how the combat system in Mabinogi is doesn't work anymore. If you remember the 2020 Community Survey, 57% of all players that answered it started the game over 9 years ago. Yes, this is a survey and not a hard statistic, but even for just the players that want to answer surveys, that is definitely not okay. A large majority of the playerbase started when the game was in its infancy, while only a few players joined and stuck with the game for the past 8 years. And one of the many big reasons why the game doesn't appeal to prospective/new players is that the combat isn't fun, and it never was fun for them. People play old games with fun gameplay all the time (Runescape, Super Smash Bros. Melee, Super Mario 64, etc.), and the gamers nowadays don't enjoy playing Mabinogi.
    Cho wrote: »
    Adding a dash is a band-aid fix for bigger problems, like how the devs are handling the difficulty in response to the damage creep they created, but it can cause problems too. For one, promotes a speed meta. We're already at the point where fighting is just one-shotting enemies and moving to the next group of enemies. Chainslash's crazy damage % and AoEs already promote that and it was a big mistake because it dwarfs every other skill set when not taking reforges into account.

    In the game, Path of Exile, the meta right now is to go fast/kill everything so much so that the devs in the recent update, buffed a lot of content and made the game slower as a result. They added boss 1-shot mechanics, more mob enemies, added more HP. (Similar to Mabi) Alot of players hated this. Even casually, the meta is to get a flask that gives you a reusable speed buff, rather than more health or mana, to speed through the content as fast as possible. Then, when players are doing end-game content, suddenly they get killed without knowing what killed them. (It could be an enemy with reflective damage or an unfortunate set of modifiers like "Accurate+Always Crits+Fast Attacks") Adding a dash encourages the Mabi devs to continue making the content with the miserable one-shot AoEs you were talking about in the video.

    At least for Path of Exile, while adding that difficulty slows the game down, it begins to resemble the way the gameplay was, early in the games release. Adding a dash and telegraphed attacks changes Mabi into a different style of game. And because it also promotes a speed meta, I can see the next thing being the knockback system being removed which is a big unique factor in this game. I can see them switching knockback to stun/knockdown, so you wouldn't have to chase enemies around. Knocking enemies back now becomes kiting enemies around. Removing potion poisoning would be the final nail in the coffin. If you want that style of gameplay, there are so many other games out there.

    ...

    Just because there's a dash button doesn't mean that they will put in one-shot mechanics or unbalanced AOE attacks. Games like FFXIV and Genshin Impact still don't have one-shot mechanics, but are fun to play because the dash/dodge options allow them to kite or maneuver around the attacks. No, these games aren't necessarily hard in the grand scheme of things, but the player feels challenged enough to have fun without the games being frustrating. That's the balance that a dash button will try to achieve.

    The playing field has changed. This is why I suggested that the developers implement a modern ability found in many popular games with great success - the dash button. The Pre-Genesis style of RPS/AI Prediction, along with the Post-Genesis style of mobility and instant skill-loading, have been proven multiple times to no longer work. The real spirit of Mabinogi is the ability to use any weapon and any skillset whenever you want. It's the freedom of combat that gives Mabinogi its edge over other games within the genre. It's not about AI predictions or RPS combat anymore, as gamers nowadays don't care for it or don't want to put in the time to learn it.

    As the audience changes, the game has to change with them, or else it will die. Many games have changed with their audience with relatively decent success, like World of Warcraft. The numbers for Mabinogi are already showing that the game isn't popular with new players at all. It's now time that the game changes, too.
    Cho wrote: »
    So rather than adding a dash, I think they should add difficulty by rebalancing a lot of the noninteractive talents and give them weakpoints.

    i.e Gun normals have low stun unless they crit. Now ranged weapon normals don't stun unless they crit (including chainblades)
    i.e Chain Sweep, Crisis, and Climactic Crash can be defended
    i.e Final Hit duration, cooldown, and reforges are halved (20/120) For players without FH reforged gear, it means it's up more but you can't abuse it for as long. So it's not a guaranteed room clear/boss killing move and it works better with Time Shift.
    i.e Getting attacked ends your Fighter combo and Fighter cooldowns are all on a 15 second cooldown.
    i.e. Defense cooldown gets lowered to 2 seconds.
    i.e. Getting getting knocked down grants the player Adv. Heavy Stander for 1 second on get up. (Enough time to get up and windmill or evade. Useful for obnoxious multi-aggro like Sulfur Spider or Shadow Realm Champion. Similar to how enemies instantly get up when attacked while downed but balanced for the player.)

    With these examples, the devs could start adding post fighter skillsets to more mobs without it being impossible to fight against. They could also stop gimping 1 handed swords and humans as a balanced measure.

    Then, they could start implementing non-one shot mechanics and less spongy bosses. I think Claimh Solas, Mokkurkalfi, or Dragons are almost in a good spot for how big bosses could be handled. Mokkurkalfi needs a tell for when it does the AoE where you need to stand in the protective circle. Dragons need a tell for their stampedes. Swipes and tail swipes need to be blockable/counterable. There's a lot that could be worked on.

    ...

    Your mechanics are fine, but they still don't tackle the main issue - fighting enemies still isn't fun. Think about it from a new player perspective, they won't notice or care for almost all, if not, all of the changes that you suggested. They will still get one-shot by Thunder, they will still die for no reason, and they will still do the same strategy over and over to the same basic mobs over and over again.

    Most players who play an MMORPG for the first time will give the game 2 hours to see if the game is right for them. If you need to tell them that the good fights and good bosses take over 10 hours of gameplay to get to, they will quit the game. You need to ease in the player to get to these telegraphed mechanics by sprinkling them in early on, which is why I brought up Gray Wolves. They're an early game mob that would teach the player about the dash button, and as the player continues with their adventure through Generations or content, they'll find more attack patterns that they can avoid to try and deal damage.
    Cho wrote: »
    In response to what you mention about cheese strategies. Outside of actual glitches and AI resetting (like group windmill spam), I don't think coming up with strategies that work is a bad thing. Like, Smash tennis from way back or Meteor Striking the Dullahan from outside of the room in Fomor Attack. It feels like you're outsmarting the game. Sidhe Finnachaid's Dragons being killable with magic feels fair considering the game is and has been melee-centric forever. I don't know if they introduced any enemies that are completely resistant to melee yet besides the ones that can color change like Nightmare. There are a lot of common enemies that always have a resistance to range and magic. In Finnachaid, the dragons can die to magic and the final boss has regen and is susceptible to wounds as well as there being enemies you don't want to be in melee range of or you get a long debuff. It feels like it was made with magic and range in mind.

    ...

    If the main way we all get past intended mechanics is by not doing them, then it makes you wonder why did they waste their time in putting effort into making these mechanics in the first place. The game doesn't feel cohesive or well-thought out if players are just going to find ways to not play the game. This is the pinnacle of bad game design, you don't want the playerbase to not play the game because the normal way isn't fun. Players feel fantastic when they figure out how to beat enemies with the tools that the game gives them, like a puzzle. In games like The Legend of Zelda series, the developers give the players the tools to beat enemies in such a way that the player feels clever or thinks that the designers are challenging them in creative ways. In Mabinogi, there is nothing clever about ignoring a mechanic like the ice witch circle in Crom Bas by stacking up all enemies in a corner and DPSing them with Flame Burst until they die. There is nothing clever about seeing a Sword of Strife on the ground from when you accidentally kill one of the wisps with Firebolt as you continue to Firebolt the dragons to death.
    Cho wrote: »
    You say that Nexon either makes content too easy or too hard but the real problem seems to be that they're making content almost future-proofed for damage creep and reforge players. Getting to stat cap, having R1 skills, and having fully upgraded gear and weapons should be enough for late-game contents. There is a huge gap between something like Advanced Hardmode or Elite Shadow Missions and Tech Duinn. Stats are capped and skills aren't doing enough damage. Even on the Dungeon Guide it jumps from Alby Advanced Hard mode to Sidhe Finnachaid Advanced or from Martials Arts Finals to Peaca Abyss. Then new content comes out and it's just damage creep like Glyphwright temp buffs or Stardust procs on skills.

    With the direction Mabinogi is going in and will always go in at this point, power creep will always be an issue. No fights feel innovative, instead they feel like a waste of time. This is why I suggested a full mechanic added to the game, rather than just reworking what we have. By giving the game another layer of depth, the developers can now challenge the player in more ways than an HP + defensive stats meatsack.

    Mabinogi's combat system has no depth. It never has. Not even with the Pre-Genesis combat system, where the game was pushing to the point where people will one-shot or cheese everything already (and ignore RPS/AI predictions), and not with the Post-Genesis system where we still have one-shots and cheese on everything. A universal mobility skill gives the game real depth and breathes new life into the combat system, for new players and old time veterans alike.
    Sherri
  • Give Players More Mobility

    Helsa wrote: »
    Nexon updated the combat system at the time they introduced the fighter talent, but did not update it for mobs. Before that, Mabinogi combat was much more difficult since we fought mobs on equal footing. Try logging into a pet and go fight things to see what it was like. If they put us back on equal footing by updating the combat system for mobs too and gave them access to the other talents, then they might be able to make fair yet challenging content without resorting to cheap tricks.

    I started playing Mabinogi in 2008, when G3 was the latest generation. I understand that Pre-Genesis was a different combat system, but I still don't think it would hold up well in today's world, especially since some of the prominent strategies at the time were cheese strategies that didn't let the mobs attack you like Pet Revolver, Windmill stacking, and Summon Golem (when G9 came out).

    Yeah, they definitely need to finally update the mobs to match our faster speeds and skills for Post-Genesis. Fighting enemies in general isn't fun. Most players, from newbies to veterans, actively try to avoid encounters with enemies because they're too easy or too difficult.
    Sherri