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Immersion vs Convenience

nomigid15nomigid15
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in Story Discussion
Am I the only one who hates it when online games sacrifice lore in the name of "streamlining" content, like Maplestory centralizing PQs (which makes them feel less like perilous expeditions and more like daily errands) or Mabinogi removing Guard attacks in Filia and Vales (I mean, they could at least stop you for questioning if you're of/allied with the opposing race) and cramming the Falcon and Beast transformations into G2 (discarding the Elves>Desert Ghosts plotline in the process). Of course, I'm probably one of a VERY tiny minority of gamers who thinks story is as important as gameplay (as well as a moderately obsessive-compulsive pedant).

Thoughts?
HardmuscleSherrikapapaBronzebreakImaizumiSaiLialin

Comments

  • EraleaEralea
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    Oh yah.

    I've been playing the revamped Chapter 1 on some noobie alts and the storyline doesn't even make sense any more. It's just a jumble of fetch quests and NPCs telling you to do specific stuff. The part where the Price investigates Esras stood out to me as being compressed beyond comprehension.

    Also a long time ago I used to talk to all NPCs with the mainstream keywords because they actually had unique responses to them. Now it's all just "I don't know" responses.



    I think if they wanted to open Chapter 1 to elves and giants, they should have split the storyline three ways from G2 onwards. The way they integrated Falcons/Beasts into the story is just so awkward and clumsy. As it is, you're stuck mucking around in human paladin training because your only clue is to "seek the path of the Knight of Light". If I'm an elf, why not tell me to seek the path of the ancient Falcons?

    Jr7jPpI.png

    Really, woman? You're telling me that at this point?

    YFJbytv.png

    Instead of having this thing where you run around with a piece of armour that doesn't look anything like the falcon/beast transformation, it could have given elves/giants an alternate set of quests that eventually leads back to Esras's plot. Maybe you learn about the curse of Irinid. Maybe there are clues about the Irinid in Uladh (she's not in Iria any more, so she must've gone that way, right?), so you run around in dungeons to look for her. Maybe you do the Good Deeds sequence to prove yourself worthy of the Irinid's and the spirits' blessings. Maybe the search causes you to stumble upon a certain necromancer and her golem. Maybe you discover that the little red haired girl in the dungeon is a vessel for a goddess, but it turns out to be Macha, not the one you were looking for.

    Surely there are other ways to tell this story without being human-centric. It doesn't have to be a wildly different story, just a similar one from a different perspective.
    HardmuscleSaiSherrikapapaFalmostaImaizumiLialin
  • nomigid15nomigid15
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,095
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    Some G2 tweaks I've been thinking of myself:

    - Talking to Craig the first time will give you a Falcon (if an elf) or Beast (if a giant) keyword.

    - Talking to Rian and Esras will give you a Lord's Recommendation, which you give to Castenea (if an elf) or Krug (if a giant).

    - Castenea will give you a Longa Ruins Pass for Falcon Awakening, while Krug will give you a Par Ruins Pass for Beast Awakening. Both will also give a Red Wing of the Goddess for their respective dungeons.

    - The Math G2 Dungeon will still be done as normal, albeit with tweaked dialog.

    - Instead of giving the Glowing Gargoyle Statue to Aer, it will be used to access a Glowing Gargoyle Dungeon in the Karu Forest Ruins. Completing it will reward you with an Ancient Tablet of the Irinid, which you give to Aer in exchange for a Falcon Feather with the Spirit's Blessing (if an elf) or a Beast Pelt with the Spirit's Blessing (if a giant).

    As for the old Transformation Quest storyline, maybe a modified version of that could be placed after G3, as an alternative to the (human exclusive) Dark Knight Questline.
    HardmuscleSherriLialin
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
    Mabinogi Rep: 11,830
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    edited August 13, 2017
    I have so many unanswered questions.....

    I never found out the way to get to Sesame Street, why Dora doesn't just use Google Maps, why we don't ever see the headline "Psychic Wins Lottery"; why women can't put on mascara with their mouth closed, why "abbreviated" is such a long word, why lemon juice is made with artificial flavor yet dishwashing liquid is made with real lemons, why they sterilize the needle for lethal injections and why do you have to "put your two cents in" but it's only a "penny for your thoughts"? Where's that extra penny going to? Can a hearse carrying a corpse drive in the carpool lane? Why does The Alphabet Song and Twinkle Twinkle Little Star have the same tune? Why did you just try to sing those two previous songs? And just what is Victoria's secret? You see, the world just has to keep going. I have too many questions......and do you really think I am this witty ???? ...because I actually stole this from a friend, who stole from a friend, who stole from a friend, who stole from a friend, who stole from a friend. P.S. and why did Kamikaze pilots wear helmets??
    LeiliciaSherriGretastegsImaizumiLialin
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,495
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    I think NPCs have given up on us.
    Lialin
  • nomigid15nomigid15
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,095
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    I think NPCs have given up on us.

    Given the way some milletians act when bored (beating each other senseless for no apparent reason, to give just one example), I can't exactly blame them. :D
    SherriImaizumiLialin
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
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    edited October 10, 2017
    nomigid15 wrote: »
    Am I the only one who hates it when online games sacrifice lore in the name of "streamlining" content, like Maplestory centralizing PQs (which makes them feel less like perilous expeditions and more like daily errands) or Mabinogi removing Guard attacks in Filia and Vales (I mean, they could at least stop you for questioning if you're of/allied with the opposing race) and cramming the Falcon and Beast transformations into G2 (discarding the Elves>Desert Ghosts plotline in the process). Of course, I'm probably one of a VERY tiny minority of gamers who thinks story is as important as gameplay (as well as a moderately obsessive-compulsive pedant).

    Thoughts?

    The guard functions were removed because they were "I see you, and in one shot, you're dead".
    Also so terrifying and overpowered that newbies kept complaining.
    Sometimes you have to sacrifice functions to stop your own system from griefing newbies, even if the experienced players at the time didn't have a problem with said NPCs.
    To be honest, Maplestory gets so laggy with all the players spamming skills in one zone that it makes sense for there to be solo instanced zones for heavy lore areas.
    It keeps the player immersed without crashing or getting annoyed by grinders.

    I guess the only problem I have with the lore is the unawnsered questions of:
    "What would happen if a Dark Knight were to be purified, could they turn into a Paladin, or would they just sink deeper into the darkness of the armor and evolve?"
    "Can a Dark Knight really not become a Paladin again?"
    All of that made me think of why KR hasn't released continuations to that side of the lore along with more transformation skills.
    Sherri
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,675
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    nomigid15 wrote: »
    Am I the only one who hates it when online games sacrifice lore in the name of "streamlining" content, like Maplestory centralizing PQs (which makes them feel less like perilous expeditions and more like daily errands) or Mabinogi removing Guard attacks in Filia and Vales (I mean, they could at least stop you for questioning if you're of/allied with the opposing race) and cramming the Falcon and Beast transformations into G2 (discarding the Elves>Desert Ghosts plotline in the process). Of course, I'm probably one of a VERY tiny minority of gamers who thinks story is as important as gameplay (as well as a moderately obsessive-compulsive pedant).

    Thoughts?

    The guard functions were removed because they were "I see you, and in one shot, you're dead".
    Also so terrifying and overpowered that newbies kept complaining.
    Sometimes you have to sacrifice functions to stop your own system from griefing newbies, even if the experienced players at the time didn't have a problem with said NPCs.
    To be honest, Maplestory gets so laggy with all the players spamming skills in one zone that it makes sense for there to be solo instanced zones for heavy lore areas.
    It keeps the player immersed without crashing or getting annoyed by grinders.

    I guess the only problem I have with the lore is the unawnsered questions of:
    "What would happen if a Dark Knight were to be purified, could they turn into a Paladin, or would they just sink deeper into the darkness of the armor and evolve?"
    "Can a Dark Knight really not become a Paladin again?"
    All of that made me think of why KR hasn't released continuations to that side of the lore along with more transformation skills.

    On the question of whether or not a Dark knight could return to being a paladin I think its possible but highly unlikely. There are 3 requirements for being a paladin, be in the favor of a divine being (3rd tier deities will work), the support of the spirits, and a strong human will. However specifically for the millitian paladin in order to turn into a Dark Knight you had to abandon the wolf/paladin spirit. Whether or not the spirit is willing to forgive you and give you support again is the deciding factor between someone returning to being a paladin or not. That is assuming you are able to completely purge the Dark Armor from your body and not just simply render it inert.
  • nomigid15nomigid15
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,095
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    GTCvActium wrote: »
    nomigid15 wrote: »
    Am I the only one who hates it when online games sacrifice lore in the name of "streamlining" content, like Maplestory centralizing PQs (which makes them feel less like perilous expeditions and more like daily errands) or Mabinogi removing Guard attacks in Filia and Vales (I mean, they could at least stop you for questioning if you're of/allied with the opposing race) and cramming the Falcon and Beast transformations into G2 (discarding the Elves>Desert Ghosts plotline in the process). Of course, I'm probably one of a VERY tiny minority of gamers who thinks story is as important as gameplay (as well as a moderately obsessive-compulsive pedant).

    Thoughts?

    The guard functions were removed because they were "I see you, and in one shot, you're dead".
    Also so terrifying and overpowered that newbies kept complaining.
    Sometimes you have to sacrifice functions to stop your own system from griefing newbies, even if the experienced players at the time didn't have a problem with said NPCs.
    To be honest, Maplestory gets so laggy with all the players spamming skills in one zone that it makes sense for there to be solo instanced zones for heavy lore areas.
    It keeps the player immersed without crashing or getting annoyed by grinders.

    I guess the only problem I have with the lore is the unawnsered questions of:
    "What would happen if a Dark Knight were to be purified, could they turn into a Paladin, or would they just sink deeper into the darkness of the armor and evolve?"
    "Can a Dark Knight really not become a Paladin again?"
    All of that made me think of why KR hasn't released continuations to that side of the lore along with more transformation skills.

    On the question of whether or not a Dark knight could return to being a paladin I think its possible but highly unlikely. There are 3 requirements for being a paladin, be in the favor of a divine being (3rd tier deities will work), the support of the spirits, and a strong human will. However specifically for the millitian paladin in order to turn into a Dark Knight you had to abandon the wolf/paladin spirit. Whether or not the spirit is willing to forgive you and give you support again is the deciding factor between someone returning to being a paladin or not. That is assuming you are able to completely purge the Dark Armor from your body and not just simply render it inert.

    Well, maybe they could take a page from FFIV and make you fight your Dark Knight self for it.
  • OpalthiraOpalthira
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    Guards probably stopped attacking players since the elves and giants are allied in Saga?
    SherriLialin
  • EraleaEralea
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    The combination of the earlier quests and the newer quests creates a really bizarre story too.

    One minute you're spying on the elves and Atrata is pretending to scream for help, next minute Castanea is cheerfully telling you about Filia's post-Saga revamp. Then you chat with Hagel for a bit for the latter quest, and then you go back to Taunes, who apologises because the elves apparently beat you up and threw you back through the mana tunnel.

    ???

    I mean I get the story because I've been here since Pioneers, but I can't imagine what a newbie must think of all this.
    SherriImaizumi
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    I almost always emphasize convenience over lore, and do not see why anyone should oppose it otherwise. Personally, the story could use a bit more work in how it introduces concepts and mechanics in a seamless transition of a Generation 1 Mabinogi to Generation 20.

    Still, a lack of permadeath is nice (I know Mabinogi explains it, but many other games do not, but does this mean that mean that such games should have permadeath?), alongside Moongates, a lack of guard attacks so that areas of Shyllien and Hillwen can be accessed, etc.

    Lore is the cherry on top of the cake, but having the foundation of its game mechanic be an annoyance has it ring hollow.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    edited October 16, 2017
    Opalthira wrote: »
    Guards probably stopped attacking players since the elves and giants are allied in Saga?

    Should be alchemy/shadow realm.
    Sherri
  • nomigid15nomigid15
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    @Blissfulkill - Well, like I said the guards could at least stop and question you (presumably letting you pass if your answers satisfy them). Of course that would automatically cease after you complete the proper mainstream questlines.

    @Eralea - Yeah, that bugs me too. It feels like they're always trying to push new mainstream stuff simultaneously with older stuff, even when they the should be rather far apart chronologically (like when you can't talk to an NPC for a G1 quest without triggering dialogue for a g19 quest). Especially since an NPC having different sets of dialogue depending on your mainstream questline progress is possible (they did it with Price a.k.a Redire).
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    nomigid15 wrote: »
    @Blissfulkill - Well, like I said the guards could at least stop and question you (presumably letting you pass if your answers satisfy them). Of course that would automatically cease after you complete the proper mainstream questlines.

    @Eralea - Yeah, that bugs me too. It feels like they're always trying to push new mainstream stuff simultaneously with older stuff, even when they the should be rather far apart chronologically (like when you can't talk to an NPC for a G1 quest without triggering dialogue for a g19 quest). Especially since an NPC having different sets of dialogue depending on your mainstream questline progress is possible (they did it with Price a.k.a Redire).

    Although it makes a lot of sense, especially lorewise, but since they gave players to option to jump around, it's too late to turn back.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    edited October 17, 2017
    nomigid15 wrote: »
    @Blissfulkill - Well, like I said the guards could at least stop and question you (presumably letting you pass if your answers satisfy them). Of course that would automatically cease after you complete the proper mainstream questlines.

    @Eralea - Yeah, that bugs me too. It feels like they're always trying to push new mainstream stuff simultaneously with older stuff, even when they the should be rather far apart chronologically (like when you can't talk to an NPC for a G1 quest without triggering dialogue for a g19 quest). Especially since an NPC having different sets of dialogue depending on your mainstream questline progress is possible (they did it with Price a.k.a Redire).

    The problem lies more for new players, who simply has not the pleasure of witness the gradual growth of Generations, which made the transition far easier to comprehend. Even then, you are picking apart an example, instead of the primary treatise of my post. Not quite sure how to argue my side though, other than I would merely be annoyed with loads of immersion and realism that makes even the most minute action insufferable to perform.
    KensamaofmariSherri
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    nomigid15 wrote: »
    @Blissfulkill - Well, like I said the guards could at least stop and question you (presumably letting you pass if your answers satisfy them). Of course that would automatically cease after you complete the proper mainstream questlines.

    @Eralea - Yeah, that bugs me too. It feels like they're always trying to push new mainstream stuff simultaneously with older stuff, even when they the should be rather far apart chronologically (like when you can't talk to an NPC for a G1 quest without triggering dialogue for a g19 quest). Especially since an NPC having different sets of dialogue depending on your mainstream questline progress is possible (they did it with Price a.k.a Redire).

    The problem lies more for new players, who simply has not the pleasure of witness the gradual growth of Generations, which made the transition far easier to comprehend. Even then, you are picking apart an example, instead of the primary treatise of my post. Not quite sure how to argue my side though, other than I would merely be annoyed with loads of immersion and realism that makes even the most minute action insufferable to perform.

    They're more like "what am I playing."
    This doesn't make sense.
    I'm just here to socialize.
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
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    I'm gonna put forth a theory that would help the immersion feeling but also reconcile with game play. Basically, all millitians are part of a hive mind of some kind, much like how the elves are connect by the memory tower. We can share knowledge and experiences, but still retain our individualities. Here's how it works, basically, the latest Generation the game is on is the "present" and anyone doing the older generations are reliving past events. This would explain why the Milltian chooses and does specific actions independent of the player sometimes. Our failures and successes are pre-determined for the story, however, if we assume that the story Milltian isn't actually the character we're playing as, but a separate entity entirely that we're seeing the memories of. In the Alchemist generation the elves and giants have ended their war with each other, and are represented by the races opening their borders more, this would explain why the guards don't attack, but the NPCs still say they do, you exist in the present, but are reliving memories past. This would also explain the simplification and merging of the elf and giant stories into Chapter 1, the collective Millitian race would have been around for centuries from their perspective, these events from such an earlier point would become faded, and details lost. This would also explain why even though the Millitian is said to hold "world changing powers" but we can't do anything with it besides a few cutscenes, because the players don't have this power, the one whose memories we're living through is the only one to have access to its full power. We're simply sharing a portion of it. But that's just how I choose to see things when I want to immerse myself in the lore. What do you think?
    BronzebreakYorozuya