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Make elite SMs not require elite pass

CquilesCquiles
Mabinogi Rep: 1,355
Posts: 25
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in Feedback and Suggestions
i want to be able to pick things like elite shadow wiz without needing a pass every time i want to go. sometimes i need stronger mobs for cp training, sometimes i just want mobs that hit harder and get more exp.

compared to newer hard content and how our general character stats have increased from revamps i dont think it should be a pass-locked difficulty.
i also think it will make the game more enjoyable (if i have to grind for a pass i get tired of the bad sm rewards and just log off).

Cquiles of Alexina
  1. yaaaaa42 votes
    1. yay
       52% (22 votes)
    2. nay
       48% (20 votes)

Comments

  • GretaGreta
    Mabinogi Rep: 38,545
    Posts: 5,535
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    edited June 12, 2017
    Not gonna support that. Just imagine poor newbies who have no clue what Elite is and they end up going to it, then later say "This game is too hard, such bs i'm quitting". Also just imagine people spamming Conflict or Shadow Wizard Elite non-stop getting all that 50-200k gold in one run every 5 minutes. That would crash market asap... Materials like Broken Seal Chain would drop prices too, which is a good thing i guess, but still, i'm not supporting this. It will only cause even worse inflation in this game than already it is.
    kapapa
  • BloonkBloonk
    Mabinogi Rep: 980
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    i agree, but i think a better alternative would be to get rid of specific elite passes, and have them similar to lord passes in that way. just get an elite pass and be able to choose what mission you want.
    TheNyanCatDanievictriakapapa
  • CquilesCquiles
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,355
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    Greta wrote: »
    .

    blahh, thats suuuuuch a specific situation you pulled to disagree with by using newbies. im sure they can read and distinguish elite as being the most difficult when its at the end of the difficulty list. if they cant then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ theyre gonna have a hard time playing the rest of the game and quit regardless. protect the newbies sure but im a vet getting boned over here when 50% of hardmode mobs are weak to me and i cant even get exp playing the game as intended. (let me tell you about rafting...impossible to get exploration exp)

    why do i gotta hoard tendering potions and wear a cub just to play hardmode? reset my char skills and not use skills ive spent time training to use in the first place because of cp issues? and the hardmode shadow mission is still long and takes time?? locked elites behind slim-drop chance passes at end-chests and it doesnt drop the pass i want because there are 23 different missions????

    ridiculous! im completely fed up with having to curb myself to get the full mob exp doing shadow missions. i think you can understand where im coming from.

    i mean the economy is still going to be ruined anyways by hardmode spammers, we can make a different suggestion for that in regards to gold sinks. gold nerfs to bring down the 1% rich people who spam will hurt the rest of the casual playerbase. that would make casuals quit and leave spammers to be the norm. u see where im getting at.

    Bloonk wrote: »
    .
    thats a nice alternative, lord passes drop very frequently and being able to choose the mission would also be stellar
    RaishiiDanievictriaBehelit
  • FalcondaeFalcondae
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,555
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    Greta wrote: »
    Not gonna support that. Just imagine poor newbies who have no clue what Elite is and they end up going to it, then later say "This game is too hard, such bs i'm quitting". Also just imagine people spamming Conflict or Shadow Wizard Elite non-stop getting all that 50-200k gold in one run every 5 minutes. That would crash market asap... Materials like Broken Seal Chain would drop prices too, which is a good thing i guess, but still, i'm not supporting this. It will only cause even worse inflation in this game than already it is.
    I'm actually going to agree here. If I remember correctly (though I could be wrong), Elites do allow newbies (Fledgeling+) to drop in as long as they have the party requirements fulfilled, have the pass, is the Party Lead. Regardless of people reading or not, unfortunately, not a lot of newbies will read because they rush through without taking time to actually learn, and probably most of the time don't even ask, or if they do, they don't take heed of advice. Society now has slowly become a society of wanting quick-satisfaction or are the TL;DR type.

    And even if you introduce gold sinks, they don't last very long because there are either alternatives to these sinks that use other resources, or people continue to hoard and don't care about the sinks (I'm actually one of those who just use what I need and stock the rest away ^^;). It also doesn't help that there are gold sellers (But then again, this is a problem with all MMOs these days).

    To my understanding as well, there aren't too many gold sinks to begin with. You have the Tara Auction House, the Tara Church Donation, and now the skill resets from Duncan, which has a cap to how much you have to pay for resets.

    Perhaps dropping in without a limitation isn't a good idea, but Bloonk's suggestion of using a single Elite Pass and letting you choose what you want is a better alternative. At least this way, you wouldn't have so many other Elite Passes sitting in the bank/inventory while being able to stack passes. Though, probably on top of Bloonk's suggestion, I would maybe add a timer to the pass, maybe a 2 week timer? At least this way, we wouldn't be hoarding so much if they decide to not let them stack like the Lord passes. Already, I'm sitting on maybe 75 Lord Passes with no parties to run them... >.<
  • CquilesCquiles
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,355
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    Falcondae wrote: »
    Society now has slowly become a society of wanting quick-satisfaction or are the TL;DR type.
    you brought in a vague generalization of humans to combat this suggestion based on a specific problem. if you were writing and submitting an essay to a professor they would mark points off for that filler sentence. this game has 50 million lines of rp text and in depth character development with tons of cutscenes with dialogue in them so these tl;dr people you speak of would still quit. this is just not the game for them. aside from new player retention lets focus on the people actually playing and enjoying the game for what it is (super story and text based) therefore this shouldnt be a problem and its easy to guess elite as the highest difficulty. if they get so mad over getting their booties kicked in an elite without learning they will not enjoy or play the rest of the game anyways
    Falcondae wrote: »
    And even if you introduce gold sinks
    there have been gold sinks since the beginning of this game but thats not what this suggestion is for. you should make a gold sink suggestion separately because hardmode sm spamming is still causing an economic problem and elite is just 7-12k more base end reward money. the reason the gold sinks arent working as well is because our characters are generally way more powerful and easy to level, easy to rank, faster to rb, therefore easier to gain access to gold giving missions and dungeons. basically the game is severely unbalanced and not designed to have a populace of chars with access to 24 talents that give base stats just from ranking them to easy grind "hard" (hardmode) missions. but because of this unbalance, powerful characters cannot access the hardmode version for them (elite is becoming the new hardmode), and have to suffer with one-shotting hardmode mobs for fun and not getting exp. this is what this suggestion is for and i feel like youre not seeing where im coming from but shouting "BUT THE GOLD!!" ignoring the rest of the issue im bringing up.
    Falcondae wrote: »
    To my understanding as well, there aren't too many gold sinks to begin with.
    mail boxes, bank money fees, buying fees at player shops of over 50k, opening shops and their sell fees, rewatching shamala cutscenes, making mangled passes into hardmode passes, spirit weapon making, spirit weapon transfers to another weapon, weapon repairs at better rates, enchants that increase repair rates, upgrade stones cost gold per use, changing channels while still in combat dips into ur money in ur inv, logging off while still in combat, buying a house, paying house fees, buying housing district passes, giving ur partner gold to raise disposition, and some other stuff i believe were implemented not just to exist for your convenience, but to sink more gold if you want an edge in the game or if you want to use their services. some of these services are rng based so theyre designed to fail and make u load in more gold that will be removed entirely from the economy (hence, its a gold sink). did you name the gold sinks no one uses as often on purpose?
    Falcondae wrote: »
    but Bloonk's suggestion-
    yeah i wish the passes would stack too thatd be great. i like the suggestion but elite being locked in the first place seems silly now because were are a point where the mobs arent an incredulous challenge that need to be pass-locked like they used to be. this is why i am suggesting no pass.

  • SylekSylek
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,890
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    edited June 13, 2017
    Cquiles wrote: »
    Falcondae wrote: »
    Society now has slowly become a society of wanting quick-satisfaction or are the TL;DR type.
    you brought in a vague generalization of humans to combat this suggestion based on a specific problem. if you were writing and submitting an essay to a professor they would mark points off for that filler sentence. this game has 50 million lines of rp text and in depth character development with tons of cutscenes with dialogue in them so these tl;dr people you speak of would still quit. this is just not the game for them. aside from new player retention lets focus on the people actually playing and enjoying the game for what it is (super story and text based) therefore this shouldnt be a problem and its easy to guess elite as the highest difficulty. if they get so mad over getting their booties kicked in an elite without learning they will not enjoy or play the rest of the game anyways

    I actually agree with that statement. As for all of the rp text and cutscenes, you can skip over most of it (regardless of whether or not you actually bothered to read it). The only exception I know of is the first time you do Saga, but you can definitely skip over the text and cutscenes.
    Cquiles wrote: »
    Falcondae wrote: »
    To my understanding as well, there aren't too many gold sinks to begin with.
    mail boxes, bank money fees, buying fees at player shops of over 50k, opening shops and their sell fees, rewatching shamala cutscenes, making mangled passes into hardmode passes, spirit weapon making, spirit weapon transfers to another weapon, weapon repairs at better rates, enchants that increase repair rates, upgrade stones cost gold per use, changing channels while still in combat dips into ur money in ur inv, logging off while still in combat, buying a house, paying house fees, buying housing district passes, giving ur partner gold to raise disposition, and some other stuff i believe were implemented not just to exist for your convenience, but to sink more gold if you want an edge in the game or if you want to use their services. some of these services are rng based so theyre designed to fail and make u load in more gold that will be removed entirely from the economy (hence, its a gold sink). did you name the gold sinks no one uses as often on purpose?

    Mail, bank, and purchase fees take away some gold, opening shop fee is actually really easy to get around because of a kiosk, which is also reusable. The only possible downside to the kiosk is that it takes up 2x4 and many bags can store more stuff, but the items aren't in your inventory while you're trying to sell them. Replaying Saga costs 5000 gold. Just from finishing a daily Saga episode you get 30k. This is about as much of a money sink as MA is. Spirit weapons aren't used by all players, so not everyone has to worry about buying the extra weapon, getting the prof up on it, and repairs. Same thing for transfers. For repairs, it costs me close to 50k to fully repair my staff at Berched. Pretty easy to earn that back and then some with said staff alone, and as for enchants that raise the cost, there's also those that lower the cost. The prefix on my staff alone boosts my int, mp, and luck while lowering the repair cost. Upgrade stones, while they are based on RNG, have a limit to their uses. Changing channels is the same as logging out of one channel and into another, and it even says that when you do so. In addition, it warns you that it will cost you a tiny amount of gold and exp before you log off, so most players can avoid that entirely. Anything to do with housing practically requires Premium, as well as the limited number of houses available (though there are a lot). Partner salary is optional to begin with and not all players have a partner, and those that do don't always use them. While all of these are everyday features that eat up some of our hard earned gold, they don't eat up that much or, as @Falcondae said, people avoid it somehow.
    I actually used the Tara Donation as the method of getting Falias Dew and Rain Drop, saving my Ducats for the coming Storm. Skill resets from Duncan are new (for all players) and just because you don't use it, doesn't mean that others don't.
    Greta wrote: »
    Not gonna support that. Just imagine poor newbies who have no clue what Elite is and they end up going to it, then later say "This game is too hard, such bs i'm quitting". Also just imagine people spamming Conflict or Shadow Wizard Elite non-stop getting all that 50-200k gold in one run every 5 minutes. That would crash market asap... Materials like Broken Seal Chain would drop prices too, which is a good thing i guess, but still, i'm not supporting this. It will only cause even worse inflation in this game than already it is.

    The elite pass is an entry condition that replaces the talent level requirement. It could be made like Lord missions where you need a general pass (Elite Tail or Elite Tara or just Elite) and a certain talent level. You and I are both from Alexina, so you know how bad the economy can be. Even though you post a suggestion to fix one thing, you still have to think about what else will be affected. In this case, you want more exp and higher cp mobs, but you are basically ignoring the economy. Just because it's getting hit by gold buyers and spammers does not mean it can be ignored. I would love to fix it, if only slightly.
  • yessireeyessiree
    Mabinogi Rep: 840
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    agreed.

    elite passes stopped being a relevant concept when "elite" missions stopped being elite to your average player.
  • RaishiiRaishii
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    Falcondae wrote: »
    To my understanding as well, there aren't too many gold sinks to begin with. You have the Tara Auction House, the Tara Church Donation, and now the skill resets from Duncan, which has a cap to how much you have to pay for resets.

    If those are the only gold sinks you can name, then I question how much you actually play the game. You have: enchants that have incredibly high repair fee multiplier, special upgrading which people constantly complain about RNG screwing them over, the fact that it costs 750k to craft a Phantasm pass, etc.
  • NamiriNamiri
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    Sylek wrote: »
    The elite pass is an entry condition that replaces the talent level requirement. It could be made like Lord missions where you need a general pass (Elite Tail or Elite Tara or just Elite) and a certain talent level.

    That actually sounds a lot more ideal compared to what we have currently. Since it would be handier to just have a general Elite Pass rather than separate Elite Passes for every single different Shadow Mission. Which would certainly save on inventory space for sure if one prefers to hold onto their Elite Passes until that particular SM comes around as a daily. That and it would be nicer for those who would prefer to run a certain Elite SM instead of having to do whatever the random pass is.

  • CquilesCquiles
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    Sylek wrote: »
    everyday features that eat up some of our hard earned gold, they don't eat up that much or, as Falcondae said, people avoid it somehow.
    I actually used the Tara Donation as the method of getting Falias Dew and Rain Drop, saving my Ducats for the coming Storm. Skill resets from Duncan are new (for all players) and just because you don't use it, doesn't mean that others don't.

    "i use this therefore its common", impressive. i said those sinks mentioned by fal were ones people dont use as often, sort of out of the way types of sinks. also i like getting shining stars from donation boxes myself, though whether i use these sinks is not the point (why did you assume i dont use them?)

    i also said the services that have sinks in them give you the edge, i didnt say they were required and didnt say every single soul uses it. i was just listing them because fal's statement is implying they are limited and out of the way and fal did not address my cause for this suggestion at all. i was not listing them to justify the gold influx management capabilities of sinks if elites were unlocked.
    now aside all of that, your post is agreeing these sinks dont impose as much as they should, maybe because you understand that characters are so strong and can grind hardmode missions to get past sinks in the first place. (we so strong, we have so much cp, wow!)

    so you basically agree with me. i said the sinks were there, i didnt say they were effective. this isnt for the economy, this is for getting exp and having mobs to train stuff on with a level that is not as elite as it used to be. this is more about the balance between character and mob and how elite is unnecessarily locked for mobs that we are evenly matched to now.
    Sylek wrote: »
    you still have to think about what else will be affected.
    well as much as i would love to calculate all of the possible misgivings of unlocking locked content, suggestion threads are limited to 1 suggestion per thread and this is mostly the dev's fault for causing the unbalance that caused the economy to dip in the first place. then releasing shadow crystals. then releasing op weps in easy access gacha. etc. beforehand the thing that limited us from getting so much gold from missions in the first place was the fact that mobs were so insanely strong that there was no effective way to grind them like a money machine.

    you make a thread if youre concerned about economy and ill make a thread because im concerned that i cant play the game and level off of shadow realm mobs like the game is supposed to let me do. we are strong enough and gaining strength so fast that hardmode is a not hard difficulty, and having to have a pass for elite? why cant we just pick it like we pick hardmode!

  • TNinjaTNinja
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,995
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    edited June 13, 2017
    When you acces the Shadow Mission Bulleting, you are greeted with a list of missions.

    You are automatically checked on the very first difficulty, "Basic" upon accessing it. To check "Elite" or "Lord" missions, you need to click there by hand, by yourself, by your own power. And before you manage to spot "Elite", you're going to see "Int.", "Adv." and "Hard" before your eyes can see "Elite".
    This, should already give players an idea what the check marks are for.

    If they, somehow, missed all those four pre-written difficulty listings, and mingled themselves into an "Eite" mission by accident, without knowing the very definition of "Elite". Or "Basic". Or "Int.". Or "Adv.". Or "Hard".


    I actually don't think they're going to survive any other game in the world.

    Sure, take care of newer players, but come on.
    What is this, a kinderhouse?
  • FalcondaeFalcondae
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    Raishii wrote: »
    Falcondae wrote: »
    To my understanding as well, there aren't too many gold sinks to begin with. You have the Tara Auction House, the Tara Church Donation, and now the skill resets from Duncan, which has a cap to how much you have to pay for resets.

    If those are the only gold sinks you can name, then I question how much you actually play the game. You have: enchants that have incredibly high repair fee multiplier, special upgrading which people constantly complain about RNG screwing them over, the fact that it costs 750k to craft a Phantasm pass, etc.

    I've played the game for a very long time. I just don't max/min like some people; I'm not as hardcore as I used to play, but even then I do dabble in those enchant repair multipliers time to time and don't have money issues. And the ones I named are the easier accessible ones. There are minor gold sinks, but just not as effective as one might think since those minor ones can be easily nullified with a run through even Advanced SM. Not everyone has those super expensive enchants.

    But anyways, moving back to subject.

    While the de-buffing items help (To an extent... Can't imagine what it's like for those who are maxed all skills with those 4k+ CPs), I can understand the sentiment of people wanting Elite constantly unlocked, or at least have a generalized pass to access said content. There are times that even I like a little challenge or even go spam-happy on elites just to train without needing to reset my skills. Oh, and the stacking and trading of passes, similar to Lord Passes, would be a relief. Think I have half a bank tab for just Elite SM passes alone so I can run them for dailies or when I just feel like it, or when someone else wants one, I can just toss the pass at them instead of needing to drop in.
  • RaishiiRaishii
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,990
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    edited June 14, 2017
    Falcondae wrote: »
    Raishii wrote: »
    Falcondae wrote: »
    To my understanding as well, there aren't too many gold sinks to begin with. You have the Tara Auction House, the Tara Church Donation, and now the skill resets from Duncan, which has a cap to how much you have to pay for resets.

    If those are the only gold sinks you can name, then I question how much you actually play the game. You have: enchants that have incredibly high repair fee multiplier, special upgrading which people constantly complain about RNG screwing them over, the fact that it costs 750k to craft a Phantasm pass, etc.

    I've played the game for a very long time. I just don't max/min like some people; I'm not as hardcore as I used to play, but even then I do dabble in those enchant repair multipliers time to time and don't have money issues. And the ones I named are the easier accessible ones. There are minor gold sinks, but just not as effective as one might think since those minor ones can be easily nullified with a run through even Advanced SM. Not everyone has those super expensive enchants.

    I'm curious now to what weapons/enchants you use. 'Cause it becomes pretty easy for weapons/accessories to cost a ton to repair.
  • Fai7Fai7
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    In my opinion the system they have setup has been working fine little dry and could use few more new SM and Elite runs but over all it a system that works plus they would have to take out elite pass from drops and we all know that most down time in mab is on account of changes or updates so just think of the all the down time to simple change elite for everyone but again this just my thoughts on the matter if the put a system like once your current lv is this you get some many free elite pass that would that would work but is game has always been a grind game heck i still remember when elf and giants were at war and you could not go to your friends area if they were the opposite race and if you did the guard npc would try and kill you good times.
  • RoodlesRoodles
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    Bloonk wrote: »
    i agree, but i think a better alternative would be to get rid of specific elite passes, and have them similar to lord passes in that way. just get an elite pass and be able to choose what mission you want.

    I like this suggestion a lot.
    Personally, I've done very few Elite missions. I like them, and the ability to get more EXP out of my dailies and my favourite SMs would be quite welcome.
    Greta wrote: »
    Not gonna support that. Just imagine poor newbies who have no clue what Elite is and they end up going to it, then later say "This game is too hard, such bs i'm quitting". Also just imagine people spamming Conflict or Shadow Wizard Elite non-stop getting all that 50-200k gold in one run every 5 minutes. That would crash market asap... Materials like Broken Seal Chain would drop prices too, which is a good thing i guess, but still, i'm not supporting this. It will only cause even worse inflation in this game than already it is.

    1) Catering to the lowest common denominator is something you should avoid doing wherever possible. This is one such instance.
    2) Easy solution; adjust the gold rewards.

    I also agree that some injection of rare parts would be very welcome, especially in our several-orders-of-magnitude-smaller-playerbase-than-Korea game.

    I'm not sure why you wouldn't support this change.


  • SiodhanSiodhan
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    I'm all for adopting a lord-pass-like system for elite missions. They're common enough as a whole, but too uncommon for the specific ones needed. Plus elite has become easy enough to do naked with a literal gathering knife unsuited for combat, so it might as well not be an extraordinary mission type anymore. Just gotta make sure that every source of elite passes in the game actually adapts to that system, so that we won't get the old, outdated passes anymore, like we used to get golem stones and stuff after they were merged into the actual skill (minus the magic golem).
    Faybal
  • PanPan
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    Elite passes are not a problem if you actively run shadow missions or whatever that has a chance of rewarding them. There's a whole stockpile waiting to be used, but I just don't have time.
    GretaFaybal
  • CquilesCquiles
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    Pan wrote: »
    Elite passes are not a problem if you actively run shadow missions or whatever that has a chance of rewarding them. There's a whole stockpile waiting to be used, but I just don't have time.

    cmon man how could anyone enjoy the elite pass system in its current state, its hugely inconvenient and 'difficult' for the wrong reasons. its literally eating your inventory right now and youre like "its not a problem"? (they dont stack, cant be traded, cant be put into pets!!).

    meanwhile elite is the only mission at my level and i cant get enough passes. (and my cp is high so i get lower chances at pass drops)

    lets say the RNGods are generous and drop me one elite pass every 3 missions.
    its still a 1 in 23 chance to get a pass to the one id want to run, so that means i have to run any kind of mission an average of 69 times to get the pass that i want. (~0.044% chance) which is literally awful. how can you be ok with this as it is?
    rise against the system with me. support my suggestion.
    Pan
  • RheyRhey
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    edited July 5, 2017
    We already have an all elite in one pass. It's in the cash shop. Sometimes handed out during events. Spend the $$$ or abuse alts when those event comes around. Getting access to our wallets is pretty much half the reason Elite restrictions were designed like this. Suffer the fustrations or pay 4 the privileges of convenience...pretty much.
    GretaFaybal
  • CquilesCquiles
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,355
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    Rhey wrote: »
    We already have an all elite in one pass. It's in the cash shop. Sometimes handed out during events. Spend the $$$ or abuse alts when those event comes around. Getting access to our wallets is pretty much half the reason Elite restrictions were designed like this. Suffer the fustrations or pay 4 the privileges of convenience...pretty much.

    "just pay money and wait for events AND ABUSE EVENTS WITH ALTS!! GET GUD!! or get out"
    paying to get exp playing the game normally is NOT A PRIVILEGE. its not a convenience, we are supposed to have access to mobs that can give us exp!!
    its a FLAWED game system from 2010 that has not caught up with our 5 revamps and 11 talent additions into the game. it has not caught up with our cp and exp needs! that is literally the MOST outrageous thing you can say.


    join me with my suggestion. it will not trivialize the game, you anti-change worshipper. you flawed game designer. you must learn when a system is bad, not shift the way you play in order to get anything out of this system.