[NEW MILLETIANS] Please note that all new forum users have to be approved before posting. This process can take up to 24 hours, and we appreciate your patience.
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the Nexon Forums Code of Conduct. You have to register before you can post, so you can log in or create a forum name above to proceed. Thank you for your visit!

Elves are FINALLY getting a perk/s?

Comments

  • FearZelgadisFearZelgadis
    Mabinogi Rep: 420
    Posts: 5
    Member
    Kaga wrote: »
    solo phantasm/mag spam = strongest race




    ok.

    I did phantasm solo without any mag reforge and 200 ping, does that make elves strongest race? no.

    What orkane said is also true.

    yessiree wrote: »
    Orkane wrote: »
    snip

    Archery's relatively unreliable by design, and it's made worse by lag which many people cannot get around. It's hard to care how strong archery potentially is when it simply isn't working on the most basic level. With that said, I think the buff being given to it is a horrible way to try and fix a problem just like with final hit; simply throwing raw power at a mechanical problem isn't a great way to fix things.


    Everything is "relatively unreliable" compared to something that's of a higher certainty. The fact that you can miss your shots at high aim % doesn't make archery less competitive than any other skillets in endgame. This is somewhat compensated with the update that allowed you to aim up to 100%, and then further remedied with this upcoming buff, to elves only, which increases the aim speed. And of course this doesn't even take into account the increased aim speed from reforges.


    Everything is made worse by lag. If this lag isn't ping based (i.e. potato CPU), you really shouldn't factor this in.

    Exactly, you don't factor in ping because if you factor it in of course it would be worse. Then if you compensate the people for having high ping, the people playing with low ping will just become stronger, that in its core is the flaw with the entire design around archery.

    I'm strictly talking pen and paper here. Archery is the strongest skill set in the game for damage, and with each patch and revamp it's just getting stronger, since it is becoming more reliable every time. People were hitting 160k per crit mag over two years ago, you cannot even compare something like FH DPS to it. Trash mob clearly being one of the few exceptions.

    Sure without reforges its not as good and you can still solo whatever you want. Sure it ping and misses can drastically affect the DPS it puts out.

    Elves may not be the strongest race in general terms when you encompass everything, early and mid game content. However when you get to end game content they are by far the strongest race, since the amount of DPS you can put out puts the other skillsets to shame.

    Sherri
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 22,885
    Posts: 2,627
    Member
    Kaga wrote: »
    solo phantasm/mag spam = strongest race




    ok.

    I did phantasm solo without any mag reforge and 200 ping, does that make elves strongest race? no.

    What orkane said is also true.

    yessiree wrote: »
    Orkane wrote: »
    snip

    Archery's relatively unreliable by design, and it's made worse by lag which many people cannot get around. It's hard to care how strong archery potentially is when it simply isn't working on the most basic level. With that said, I think the buff being given to it is a horrible way to try and fix a problem just like with final hit; simply throwing raw power at a mechanical problem isn't a great way to fix things.


    Everything is "relatively unreliable" compared to something that's of a higher certainty. The fact that you can miss your shots at high aim % doesn't make archery less competitive than any other skillets in endgame. This is somewhat compensated with the update that allowed you to aim up to 100%, and then further remedied with this upcoming buff, to elves only, which increases the aim speed. And of course this doesn't even take into account the increased aim speed from reforges.


    Everything is made worse by lag. If this lag isn't ping based (i.e. potato CPU), you really shouldn't factor this in.

    Exactly, you don't factor in ping because if you factor it in of course it would be worse. Then if you compensate the people for having high ping, the people playing with low ping will just become stronger, that in its core is the flaw with the entire design around archery.

    I'm strictly talking pen and paper here. Archery is the strongest skill set in the game for damage, and with each patch and revamp it's just getting stronger, since it is becoming more reliable every time. People were hitting 160k per crit mag over two years ago, you cannot even compare something like FH DPS to it. Trash mob clearly being one of the few exceptions.

    Sure without reforges its not as good and you can still solo whatever you want. Sure it ping and misses can drastically affect the DPS it puts out.

    Elves may not be the strongest race in general terms when you encompass everything, early and mid game content. However when you get to end game content they are by far the strongest race, since the amount of DPS you can put out puts the other skillsets to shame.

    I think mechanics scare a lot of people off, especially when you factor in equipment. If there is anything to say about bash, it requires absolutely no thought to use and always hit, while archery is a bit more tricky when considering how fast you can fire. A lot of the dps calculations rely on godshooting, which is impossible depending how good one internet is, and is essentially a smash attack per half a second, while realistically at point blank it be 1-1.5 seconds, and a lot of this depends on if the enemy can be knocked back further. It is powerful, but far from overpowered. You'd need to invest a lot of gold or real life cash for the reforges themselves, and the equips to use it on. Certain people do so much damage because they have dual elementals at level 6.
  • AlmostNotsuperAlmostNotsuper
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,625
    Posts: 265
    Member
    edited March 15, 2017
    yessiree wrote: »
    Orkane wrote: »
    snip

    Archery's relatively unreliable by design, and it's made worse by lag which many people cannot get around. It's hard to care how strong archery potentially is when it simply isn't working on the most basic level. With that said, I think the buff being given to it is a horrible way to try and fix a problem just like with final hit; simply throwing raw power at a mechanical problem isn't a great way to fix things.


    Everything is "relatively unreliable" compared to something that's of a higher certainty. The fact that you can miss your shots at high aim % doesn't make archery less competitive than any other skillets in endgame. This is somewhat compensated with the update that allowed you to aim up to 100%, and then further remedied with this upcoming buff, to elves only, which increases the aim speed. And of course this doesn't even take into account the increased aim speed from reforges.


    Everything is made worse by lag. If this lag isn't ping based (i.e. potato CPU), you really shouldn't factor this in.

    People 'die' when they are killed.

    The fact that one can miss a shot at a high aim% does not necessarily make archery less competitive than any other skillsets in endgame, but it can. Context is important, you know. It's a matter of "How often does this miss, at what cost, and is the end result anywhere near that of other modes of combat (on average)?" Unless you're working with reforges and/or live in California, it tends not to be.

    But, speaking of context, there is that 'endgame' qualifier there. Depending on who you ask, endgame means reforged, so in that sense, I suppose you're correct.

    This is why reforges were a bad idea. They're never going to be managed as they should be, and as long as that's an issue, they'll continue to be barriers to balance. Yes, all things receive crazy boosts from reforges, but archery goes from 'sub-par' to 'arguably the best talent in the game'. Honestly, it'd be great if they just took some of the advantages from reforges (nerf the reforges, not remove them entirely - it's too late now) and tacked them onto the skills themselves (particularly utility reforges, not damage).

    Also, effective range and ele (in its current form) were both terrible ideas and they should be deleted, or at least nerfed into the ground.

    Everything is made worse by lag, yes; but some things are impacted more than others. What lag would you say is CPU based?
  • bunny11bunny11
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,040
    Posts: 62
    Member
    I guess I just got greedy. But after waiting a decade for a new elf perk, a once per game day attack is very depressing.

    as we know, the couple of perks that elves do have are nullified somewhat by the North America server situation, even if you break the rules and use 3rd party modifications. And most of the new gen. mounts don't even work with elf mounted archery, so that perk has basically been taken away.

    when I saw the post, I thought maybe elves might be shown some real love-- like a unique elf-only spell or hell, maybe even an elf-unique weapon & mastery, like spears. (Now I'm being REALLY greedy)

    Perhaps an across the board MP boost/cost reduction... well, I just really don't know. But in my opinion, something should be added to make elf more than a nerfed human- but I guess it's too late.

    I think they did a great job giving giants some cool perks, and we all know that humans are the jack of all trades. I wish elf got the same treatment as giant and had a few things to separate us apart other than lore/RP.
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,385
    Posts: 1,662
    Member
    edited March 15, 2017
    bunny11 wrote: »
    I guess I just got greedy. But after waiting a decade for a new elf perk, a once per game day attack is very depressing.

    as we know, the couple of perks that elves do have are nullified somewhat by the North America server situation, even if you break the rules and use 3rd party modifications. And most of the new gen. mounts don't even work with elf mounted archery, so that perk has basically been taken away.

    when I saw the post, I thought maybe elves might be shown some real love-- like a unique elf-only spell or hell, maybe even an elf-unique weapon & mastery, like spears. (Now I'm being REALLY greedy)

    Perhaps an across the board MP boost/cost reduction... well, I just really don't know. But in my opinion, something should be added to make elf more than a nerfed human- but I guess it's too late.

    I think they did a great job giving giants some cool perks, and we all know that humans are the jack of all trades. I wish elf got the same treatment as giant and had a few things to separate us apart other than lore/RP.

    I posted this in another forum, but to be fair...after looking at that gameplay, a mabi day wait to use a skill as powerful as transformations is very fair.

    *edit* Btw, we still have yet to see KR cycle backwards for Gaint, Elf, Human revamps to all be complete.
    1/3 complete
    17d00bb18bff4903b3f8577911023908.png
  • AlmostNotsuperAlmostNotsuper
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,625
    Posts: 265
    Member
    I posted this in another forum, but to be fair...after looking at that gameplay, a mabi day wait to use a skill as powerful as transformations is very fair.

    *edit* Btw, we still have yet to see KR cycle backwards for Gaint, Elf, Human revamps to all be complete.
    1/3 complete
    17d00bb18bff4903b3f8577911023908.png

    Do you know of a video that doesn't use FS in conjunction with the skill, for comparison? .-.
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,385
    Posts: 1,662
    Member
    I posted this in another forum, but to be fair...after looking at that gameplay, a mabi day wait to use a skill as powerful as transformations is very fair.

    *edit* Btw, we still have yet to see KR cycle backwards for Gaint, Elf, Human revamps to all be complete.
    1/3 complete
    17d00bb18bff4903b3f8577911023908.png

    Do you know of a video that doesn't use FS in conjunction with the skill, for comparison? .-.

    The skill is 100% of every archery skill at 100% aim for the duration of total level. This means extremely high total levels can run an entire dungeon with this on if they wanted to. Imagine what this would do to the PvP scene as a permanent buff, rather than a Mabinogi daily day.
  • AlmostNotsuperAlmostNotsuper
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,625
    Posts: 265
    Member
    The skill is 100% of every archery skill at 100% aim for the duration of total level. This means extremely high total levels can run an entire dungeon with this on if they wanted to. Imagine what this would do to the PvP scene as a permanent buff, rather than a Mabinogi daily day.

    What PvP scene? [img]http://forum2.nexon.net/images/smilies/rolleyes.png"; title="Roll Eyes" (Sarcastic)[/img]

    I'm not saying the skill isn't OP - I agree with you there. I just wanted to see it without Final Shot so I could better judge it for myself.
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,385
    Posts: 1,662
    Member
    edited March 15, 2017
    The skill is 100% of every archery skill at 100% aim for the duration of total level. This means extremely high total levels can run an entire dungeon with this on if they wanted to. Imagine what this would do to the PvP scene as a permanent buff, rather than a Mabinogi daily day.

    What PvP scene? [img]http://forum2.nexon.net/images/smilies/rolleyes.png"; title="Roll Eyes" (Sarcastic)[/img]

    I'm not saying the skill isn't OP - I agree with you there. I just wanted to see it without Final Shot so I could better judge it for myself.

    Sure, make me scan Youtube with Google translate for more Elf Ladeca buffs, when I can't even find one demonstrating the human or giant versions.

    HIGH MEMENTO SPOILER, HEADPHONE ALERT (KR ELF) Magnum Shot+Ladeca Buff Somewhere at the 2:52 mark

    AlmostNotsuper
  • AlmostNotsuperAlmostNotsuper
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,625
    Posts: 265
    Member
    Sure, make me scan Youtube with Google translate for more Elf Ladeca buffs, when I can't even find one demonstrating the human or giant versions.

    Farbeit from me to make you (or anyone) search for anything. 'Treat people as you want to be treated', they say - and I don't feel like searching for this either, hence my request. I only asked if you happened to know of one already. =T
  • OrkaneOrkane
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,155
    Posts: 130
    Member
    Exactly, you don't factor in ping because if you factor it in of course it would be worse. Then if you compensate the people for having high ping, the people playing with low ping will just become stronger, that in its core is the flaw with the entire design around archery.

    Again, this is only an issue if you're trying to compensate for ping with power. One way to help mitigate ping would be to add server side attack queuing. For people with high ping, the time between starting to load up an archery skill and starting to aim it is quite significant. Here's an approximate breakdown of the steps involved with starting to aim a shot.

    1. Client tells server: "I'm loading up my skill now"
    2. Time passes until server receives the message (based on ping)
    3. Server says "okay, go ahead"
    4a. Skill officially starts loading
    4b. Server tells client that the skill has started loading
    5a. Client receives message that the skill has loaded and the player begins aiming
    5b. Client tells server: "I'm aiming now"
    6. Time passes until the server receives the message (based on ping)
    7. Server receives the message and aiming officially begins

    Steps 2 and 6 are points when the character is basically waiting around doing nothing due to ping and are typically the longest. If the game were to be changed so the client could tell the server "I'm going to load up my skill and then immediately start aiming", that list would look more like this.

    1. Client tells server: "I'm going to to load my skill and start aiming immediately"
    2. Time passes until server receives the message (based on ping)
    3. Server says go ahead and the character officially begins aiming

    This requires a lot less back and forth between the client and server, and halves the number of ping related steps. For people with next to no ping, this would be marginally better (though the difference might be unnoticeable). For people with high ping, this could speed up the process significantly.

    Another potentially beneficial change is to simply change the elf ranged attack animation. From what I'm told, elf lag is a client sided animation lock that only affects certain people. Using the same animations that humans use (while not necessarily changing anything else about the skill) would solve this; assuming this information is correct. Again, this wouldn't strengthen people who can already play smoothly, just fix things for people who can't.
    AlmostNotsuper
  • KagaKaga
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,950
    Posts: 585
    Member
    edited March 16, 2017
    I guess all elves should just spam magnum then.

    You mage? hide+hydra? gunner? ninja? melee? (lul)

    DROP all that. Just start heavy reforging your boh set, get good bfo, bhafel/huntress, combo card etc. and mag spam.

    The end.



    Yeahh no, sounds boring as hell..

    If this is how elves' future gonna be, all I have to say is this:
    Let's hope DevCat implements a race change option one day
  • SirRyuSirRyu
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,290
    Posts: 105
    Member
    Kaga wrote: »
    I guess all elves should just spam magnum then.

    You mage? hide+hydra? gunner? ninja? melee? (lul)

    DROP all that. Just start heavy reforging your boh set, get good bfo, bhafel/huntress, combo card etc. and mag spam.

    The end.



    Yeahh no, sounds boring as hell..

    If this is how elves' future gonna be, all I have to say is this:
    Let's hope DevCat implements a race change option one day

    Just because one skill gets buffed to a crazy amount doesn't mean you have to use it ya'know, it's not like they made your way of fighting any weaker, they just made another option stronger.
  • IukeIuke
    Mabinogi Rep: 305
    Post: 1
    Member
    I don't know what the you're smoking, but you're delusional.
    Greta
  • AlmostNotsuperAlmostNotsuper
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,625
    Posts: 265
    Member
    edited March 16, 2017
    HIGH MEMENTO SPOILER, HEADPHONE ALERT (KR ELF) Magnum Shot+Ladeca Buff Somewhere at the 2:52 mark

    Awww, you're most kind. Thank you. =3=

    The video was a good comparison of archery with and without both the Ladeca Buff and Final Shot. I still think elves could use some kind of aim speed boost, but this is definitely too much - both alone and with Final Shot. Final Shot should enable elves to reach the upper limit of archery, not guarantee it; but that's exactly what FS+Ladeca buff does. I'm definitely favoring the initial aim% boost - not 50% like the first hit of AR, 20-35% maybe - since it's less susceptible to the power creep any actual aim speed boost would come with, in conjunction with other existing aim speed boosts (reforges, Final Shot). It also more closely mimics the loading/aiming speed advantage elves had to begin with.

    And just to be clear, I only intend for this to affect Elf Ranged Attack and all skills it affects, not Magnum and Crash Shot. I just realized I never actually said that, so maybe what I was suggesting sounded a bit more OP than it actually was. Maybe Magnum and Crash Shot can have lesser, skill-specific aim bonuses, like increasing their base aim speed by 20% or so. They really don't need to be fast, but they're very slow right now, for most people, compared to other things. Not like we really NEED this, but it would be reasonable.

    To address the PvP concern seriously (for once), I don't think an aim speed buff would be much of a problem (as long as it's a reasonable one), because players have so many ways to get around archery nowadays: Charge, Evasion, Luck, Snap Cast, Lightning Rod (I don't know how quick Lightning Rod actually is, since I've yet to get it myself, but it looks pretty fast). It shouldn't be much more of a problem than it is now, and it seems to me that the only (major) current problem is that effective range reforges exist.
    Orkane wrote: »
    Another potentially beneficial change is to simply change the elf ranged attack animation. From what I'm told, elf lag is a client sided animation lock that only affects certain people. Using the same animations that humans use (while not necessarily changing anything else about the skill) would solve this; assuming this information is correct. Again, this wouldn't strengthen people who can already play smoothly, just fix things for people who can't.

    This is what I was getting at with the aim speed increase - especially the removal of the delay between 99% and 100%. I read something on the wiki that led me to assume that the problem was that the chance of hitting was calculated separately for each arrow, and that if the second one missed, they'd both miss, making elf ranged attack very inaccurate, compared to the human version. So I made suggestions which I thought would ease the problem of the 'delayed second aim meter'. Of course, I remember the animation change thing, I just find it hard to believe that a mere animation change could solve the problem, even though I saw a video of it and have no reason to doubt any claims that using that particular M-word has improved people's experience. If such a simple change really will fix the problem, I see no reason why it shouldn't be done, though I'm sure there'll be some reason why it won't be done. Same with the lag issues: I know they're the actual problem (though I didn't know the details, as you did), but I doubt that they'll ever be fixed.

    I suppose we can dream though. @w@
  • AlmostNotsuperAlmostNotsuper
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,625
    Posts: 265
    Member
    On another note, these videos have reminded me how slow monsters really are compared to us without lag. It's not even the skills - they just take forever to start attacking. I haven't run Rabbie Phantasm (which I assume is what that last video is), and I don't even know what that other video was, so I don't know if the mobs there just aggro slowly or what (they shouldn't, because end game content). If they ever get this game running efficiently, they should buff monsters so they aggro faster and/or actually DO SOMETHING when they aggro.
  • FeliceFelice
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,480
    Posts: 98
    Member
    edited March 16, 2017
    SirRyu wrote: »
    Just because one skill gets buffed to a crazy amount doesn't mean you have to use it ya'know, it's not like they made your way of fighting any weaker, they just made another option stronger.

    This... This concept is perfect...

    As a rough Total 8800 Human Warrior with Rank 1 or Master Rank in all Close Combat Talent Skills, including a Master-Rank Final Hit, as well as Rank 1s in Magic and assorted other talents, I am spoiled for choices as far as what to use to fight and how to use it. Yes, Final hit is by far my strongest option, but not always my best. For example, I've spent the last 3-4 weeks on and off training Archery and Lance Combat. Having gotten all of their respective skills to rank 1 or Master Rank as well, I can say without a doubt, that there have been plenty of situations where Lance Combat or even Ranged Combat would have been a better choice than Final Hit Spam.

    The biggest issue plaguing Archery, for both Elves and Humans, is, as mentioned several times in this thread, the Network Latency between Server and Client.

    I will use Urgent Shot as an example of this:

    One of the training requirements of Urgent Shot, is to use the skill immediately after a failed shot. After doing a little digging, the window of opportunity for this, is one second. Human Support Shot has a One Second cool down across all ranks, Meaning for me to effectively train Urgent Shot's Immediate Requirement, I have to use that skill before Support Shot comes off cool down. That is impossible for me as my average Ping is about 120, meaning it can take up to a full second for the server to even register that I loaded Urgent Shot. This made using the Immediate Use training of urgent shot, impossible, even when using the "Use Skill after Loading" option within the game's own configs.

    This is for a Nexon NA East-Coast User. Imagine what the ping is like for our EU and AU Users. We can't use data gathered from Nexon KR Players, as they have a total network area 1/5 the size of California, the location of Nexon NA's servers. They average 50 Ping at the worst.
    GretaCrisis1Kaga
  • KagaKaga
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,950
    Posts: 585
    Member
    edited March 16, 2017
    SirRyu wrote: »
    Kaga wrote: »
    I guess all elves should just spam magnum then.

    You mage? hide+hydra? gunner? ninja? melee? (lul)

    DROP all that. Just start heavy reforging your boh set, get good bfo, bhafel/huntress, combo card etc. and mag spam.

    The end.



    Yeahh no, sounds boring as hell..

    If this is how elves' future gonna be, all I have to say is this:
    Let's hope DevCat implements a race change option one day

    Just because one skill gets buffed to a crazy amount doesn't mean you have to use it ya'know, it's not like they made your way of fighting any weaker, they just made another option stronger.

    You kinda do get forced if everyone uses it and finishes everything while you sit there and take 2x the time compared to a magnum spammer.
    What also worries me is that if DevCat keeps giving elves more buffs for archery, you will also kinda be forced to use it since everything else will feel "useless" compared to it.

    And to add; Making another option stronger does make your way of fighting weaker in someway. Maybe not directly but it does make it look weaker if they keep buffing that one option.
  • JoeyDee9JoeyDee9
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,175
    Posts: 146
    Member, Volunteer Forum Moderator
    I wish I was an elf. I have the gear, I have the ping, and I have the stats. I already mag for 60k as a hooman, not the like crazy elf magging 80k in phant but pretty darn skoocum.

    I'd race change to an elf in a heart beat, range has been my favorite skillset since g1 and I just never rerolled when Iria came out.

    I like how we're sitting here talking about how mag is going to dominate the DPS meta and that it doesn't provide choice when currently if you aren't a human running FH duration and CD then you might as well feel inferior. We're just changing from one bad thing (FH meta) to another (mag meta).
  • KagaKaga
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,950
    Posts: 585
    Member
    JoeyDee9 wrote: »
    I wish I was an elf. I have the gear, I have the ping, and I have the stats. I already mag for 60k as a hooman, not the like crazy elf magging 80k in phant but pretty darn skoocum.

    I'd race change to an elf in a heart beat, range has been my favorite skillset since g1 and I just never rerolled when Iria came out.

    "Why don't you just make an elf?"

    Some of the arguments used when I asked for race change so I can go from elf to giant.

    lul