Check out the patch notes for the September 10th update, Campfire Spirit: https://forums.mabinogi.nexon.net/discussion/23685
[NEW MILLETIANS] Please note that all new forum users have to be approved before posting. This process can take up to 24 hours, and we appreciate your patience.
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the Nexon Forums Code of Conduct. You have to register before you can post, so you can log in or create a forum name above to proceed. Thank you for your visit!
Closed

Statistical Debate Forum Regarding Race Imbalance

Comments

  • AlmostNotsuperAlmostNotsuper
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,955
    Posts: 269
    Member
    edited March 8, 2017
    Yay for walls of text.
    Kaga wrote: »
    1. It wouldn't change the fact that elves still depend on reforges, and magnum spam, compared to FH that doesn't even need a combo card because it's OP already.
    Sadly I don't archer so I don't use that 55% gold magnum card, I only use a selfmade blaze combo card because I mage.

    2. Stats. They have stat advantages and they are good "all-around".
    Elves are SUPPOSED to have more advantage in Magic AND Archery than humans, which they don't. (Maybe no CD Mag spam)
    I am also pretty sure people wanted elves to have some kind of revamp/buff before FH even was broken.


    3. It's not that it's "bad" but it's not good ENOUGH. Sure humans get "movement speed" which isn't really that good but hey, humans are already OP anyways.
    But when giants get a 10% combat DMG, a 400% aim speed looks bad if you compare it to that. IMO they could have given elves some kind of Magic Attack/Damage boost. But instead now elves will do the same, just a bit faster (a.k.a mag spam)
    Plus there is something called "lag" which most people know about. If NA archers can't compete with KR archers (because of lag) how do you think EU elves would feel?
    Sure both Archery and FH is DPS/Ping dependent. But archery gets more affected by lag than FH.

    4. I don't mind giants getting buffs, but elves sure as hell need(ed) a buff/revamp too. Why do you think most people heard about "elf QQ threads" more than "giant QQ threads" to begin with? Elves have been complaining for years, that's why.

    5. I do know most things are doable already, even as an elf. But at the same time it grinds my gears when I keep seeing humans and giants get the good stuff, while elves are set aside.
    Not pointing fingers here, but I don't think humans or giants will really understand how hard it is to play elves if they never main'ed one.

    I agree that it's all about enjoying the game, but it's no fun when elves need to go all out (whether it's reforge heavy mag spam or magic) while humans can just pick up 2x good swords, get FH reforge on armor, headgear and viola.

    I also agree with FH needing a nerf, that skill is way too OP and needs a nerf.
    Humans pretty much use FH on 90% of the content that we have in Mabinogi.

    I said it before too, as a player who mains an elf; hide is useless, archery on pet is too (unless you trying to get Phantasm breaker title)
    FS can't compete with FH
    Mirage Missile is trash.
    Hide + hydra isn't anything "special" either. Not every elf loves to hide and wait 30 hours to finish a dungeon/SM with that tactic.

    Why don't people realize elves are supposed to have an advantage in magic too? right now they are on the same level as humans when it comes to magic.
    I for one will never archer. Lets be real here; Magnum (for mag spam) Is more reforge heavy than FH.

    I probably would sit here like the rest and tell people to just enjoy the game the way it is too, if I was a human or a giant.

    1.While I agree that magnum combo cards are great, I agree with Kaga that they shouldn't be used to gauge the differences between races/talents. They're just too unreliable, and good ones aren't easily obtained in game. They're like reforges, but worse, in some ways.

    2.It's debatable whether elves should have more of an advantage in magic than they already do. Also, I too worry that any upgrades elves/giants receive are going to overshadow FH (which isn't much more than a lazy way to dish out tons of damage, if you think about it). I don't think FH necesarilly needs a nerf, and I'm not saying giants and elves shouldnt get some sort of buff either, but they've got to be in line with eachother.

    3.Archery is by far the most adversely affected by lag, out of all the talents (except maybe gunslinger). That said, I think Kaga really underestimates the difference in potential DPS from that lack of magnum cooldown. Especially with FS. I also don't know what exactly you're referring to when you mention a 1-% damage increase. I'm assuming it's some part of the new giant update.

    4.Who knows why elves have always QQed more than giants. Goodness knows, giants had more reason to QQ for a long time, until the armor masteries came out, I'd say.
    If you ask me, there are two possible explanations as to why elves QQ so much:
    -Elves expect to be humans-but-faster (jacks of all trades, with advantages in two talents and negligible disadvantages in one), and are surprised when they turn out to be balanced, whereas giants generally expect to be masters of close combat, not so good at anything else (certainly not archery), and therefore, are satisfied with what they get.
    -Elve's main area of expertise (archery) slowly went from the best all-around form of combat in the game, to 'meh it's alright', and then suddenly to not-as-good as everything else when that huge combat update hit and largely nullified the speed advantage while highlighting the impact of lag on its performance. Note that this last issue affects humans, too (although AR alleviates this to some extent). Just because people play humans doesn't mean they want to be forced to FH things to death. Indeed, that's the opposite of what a human in this game should be.

    5.I actually sympathize with Kaga a bit here. There's a difference between being able to do content, and being able to actively contribute to party play. However, I don't think it's primarily a race issue.

    "Mounted archery is useless, except for soloing an endgame dungeon"
    Mirage missile is fine, but it could be better, I suppose.
    Hide-dra is great.
    Pretty sure everyone agrees that FS could use a buff.

    @QTCvActium - I agree that that the key the appeal and balancing of the races is in the subtleties. It's a shame that they've been largely overshadowed by newer, more OP and more uniform advantages, to the point that elves don't even appreciate their running speed. I hope to see more changes concerning these things, but I doubt that we will.
  • KagaKaga
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,960
    Posts: 610
    Member
    @AlmostNotsuper
    I don't really see what makes elves "advantaged" in magic right now. Which is why I want DevCat to give elves more advantages in Magic.
    It's not that I understimate Magnum's potential DPS. It's just that it requires more effort for it to be "OP" compared to FH.
    Yes, hydra + hide is good, but i's not "great" imo. Most elves don't want to hydra then play the waiting game till the mobs drop. It would be even worse if they were in a party while using that tactic, in fact it would be useless.
    LittlerabbitSherri
  • HazurahHazurah
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,360
    Posts: 438
    Member
    400% aim speed unfortunately does not benefit anything else other than archery, that's why it is not satisfying. IF only they change it to range bonus on every ranged attack and skill
    While 10% dmg on giant and move speed bonus on human have many many many use
  • AlmostNotsuperAlmostNotsuper
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,955
    Posts: 269
    Member
    Hazurah wrote: »
    400% aim speed unfortunately does not benefit anything else other than archery, that's why it is not satisfying. IF only they change it to range bonus on every ranged attack and skill
    While 10% dmg on giant and move speed bonus on human have many many many use

    Archery bonus doesn't affect anything but archery. Got it.
    Seriously though, as an archer myself (and an elven archer at that), I can tell you that increased aim speed bonus > range bonus in most practical situations. And ultra long range dual guns sounds kind of broken, although not so broken that I wouldn't give elves this bonus you've asked for (and only this bonus) if I thought it would make them shut up about the imbalance of hybrid talents because of the reliance on STR. Honestly, I dunno if effective range like that would even affect the actual dual gun skills.

    Is the 10% damage bonus the giants will receive not confined to Warrior/Knight weapons?

    Also, it's funny to see this 'movement speed having uncountable uses' argument used to make elves look useless compared to humans once they receive it, when elves have been downplaying the usefulness of their speed for some time.
  • DaktaroDaktaro
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,215
    Posts: 281
    Member
    edited March 14, 2017
    Also, it's funny to see this 'movement speed having uncountable uses' argument used to make elves look useless compared to humans once they receive it, when elves have been downplaying the usefulness of their speed for some time.

    ehhh this.. i am really half and half on it lol. on one hand i agree. i try to think how my running speed will even be useful in battle and with my lag it isn't really.. cuz with that and displacement i can't outrun mobs anyway. it is useful to me in commerce though when movespeed g15 suit, fleets and alpaca robe are also boosting it i can sprint superfast. it is also useful to me personally since i use fighter skillset a LOT (other skillsets lag) and it helps to get between mobs and chain the skills before the timer runs out. a lot of players do not even use fighter though so it would not benefit them in that way. as of right now i'm not really bothered about humans getting more speed cuz whenever i play a human the speed is so.. blergh.

    but on the other hand. speed is one of the three reasons i am even an elf. the other is hide and facial cosmetic lol? and so, when humans get the speed buff it's more fuel to the idea like well i should have just switched to human so i can have final hit etc. i will never do it now because way too far in on my elf and don't care enough about mabi to grind all those skills again on a human. but..... humans are #1 in this game already (some people say giants are but there are hundreds more humans running around) and when you look at elves and are like why would someone play this, speed is one of the few things they even had that was better than humans.

    i'm kind of half and half about the aim speed for elf too.. it's like yay aim speed! but i lag so hard anyway and it only affects archery which i hardly use anymore and you can still miss. they should have at least done aim speed boost + 100% accuracy (it's still possible to miss at 100) Q-Q or a massively boosted accuracy. not counting miss via luck, no other skills can even miss unless you yourself aimed it wrong (LR) except dual gun VERY rarely. it's not even just the regular attack, you can miss with all the special skills as well except urgent shot. crash shot has terrrrrible success rate compared to the others too. poor archery :c
  • ArchmagickArchmagick
    Mabinogi Rep: 745
    Posts: 22
    Member
    The main problem with the elf update is that it buffs the point of the game where elf range is ALREADY S tier (arguably SS tier when you take Phantasm solo into account, or if you're in South Korea), rather than making it better for low to medium range players. This basically takes us back to G4-G13 where elf range was the best option for absolutely everything and there wasn't much point using anything else unless they liked it better, with the exception of the golem meta.

    Elves needed to have power shifted from dex to skills to smooth out the power curve a bit, and maybe one or two AOE/utility skills.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,940
    Posts: 2,759
    Member
    Archmagick wrote: »
    The main problem with the elf update is that it buffs the point of the game where elf range is ALREADY S tier (arguably SS tier when you take Phantasm solo into account, or if you're in South Korea), rather than making it better for low to medium range players. This basically takes us back to G4-G13 where elf range was the best option for absolutely everything and there wasn't much point using anything else unless they liked it better, with the exception of the golem meta.

    Elves needed to have power shifted from dex to skills to smooth out the power curve a bit, and maybe one or two AOE/utility skills.
    I think the main problem, to disagree, is that base archery, with maxed out skills and every stat, desperately needs reforges to not only be the best, but not be the worst. The gulf is too wide and dependent on equipment, and is dependent on cash shop items to reach it.
    Hiroki05AlmostNotsuperKeop
This discussion has been closed.