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Nexon please, allow us to change race

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  • HelsaHelsa
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    edited December 28, 2019
    So, if I may be allowed to attempt to summarize the lively discussion here in this thread: would it then be that the general consensus is that the Mabinogi races are not equal and that therefore being able to change race is a good idea?
    Dragoolfire
  • DragoolfireDragoolfire
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    We can change character gender and talents and even clothes at will, why not character race?
    Habimaru
  • HabimaruHabimaru
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    Fine with me. Mabinogi contains a lot of content. There's no way that any one player could possibly know 100% of everything there is to know about all content and I have no problem with admitting that I am less-experienced with end-game participation than the «normal» daily quest-grinds that most people do but that is also partly because most of the population does the dailies and getting people together for Tech-stuff requires co-ordination and willing participants. I only have one contact in my friend-list thus far who is actually enthusiastic about doing Alban Training Runs (on just about nearly any difficulty).

    Certainly, I did not «word» all of my previous responses in an optimum manner, but more people were «skipping» BFT2/Elite when it was out than they were the Shadow-Wizard/Elite or even TDB/Elite for whatever reason. I should certainly be more careful with the wording/vocabulary that I use so as to not use terms that would be subjective/ambiguous depending on how one defines the wording. I also admittedly «forgot» about the existence of sub-skills (such as what people grind Girg for). A lot of what you describe in Tech-Elite is in many ways adopting what I remember already doing in End-Game FFXI when I used to be active on that one. Most people were grinding the «end-game» content to continuously improve their sub-skills/passives, but, also, the content and Jobs (Talents) in FFXI were also very highly «balanced» from even the beginner levels all the way up to End-Game content (I cannot necessarily say that it is as much so with our MMORPG over here but it looks like Chain-Blade has apparently become the new «Starter-Talent» over Warrior).

    Certainly, with the introduction of Chain-Blade, perhaps I just over-looked something. I admittedly haven't really focused much on doing anything with the Chain-Blade Talent so I certainly need to bother spending some time getting that tab ranked up in order to make (eventual) better use of the Archer-Talent. For now, I am limited to being on a DSL connection, for which the fastest «ping» available on it is hugely problematic (for Archery in particular). That certainly puts me at a dis-advantage for a skill-set that was designed for 3ms to 5ms ping-delay (not to mention the additional problem of displacement from my not-so-lightning-fast-connection). Even if I did reach End-Game Stats/Gear/etc., I probably still wouldn't use Archery as my primary means of combat, but I'd probably change my mind if my connection was more reliably instantaneous (like that so-called 5G).

    You are not necessarily wrong or inaccurate or otherwise with any of your information, how-ever, the «disagreements» over Elf-Archery versus Human-Archery in this thread seem to revolve around a «mis-understanding» that did not take «connection-speed» into factor. My recent assessments were based upon my experiences where, even though my Elf already had Vision-of-Ladeca, and was over L100 clearing the BFT2/Hard as a «test» run using solely Archery (at least until the boss-room), even though cleared within 10m with all of the dismal non-end-game stats-and-strategies, the human, was not even L60 yet, had not nearly as developed of stats as my elf, kept on losing Pets due to not yet having Divine-Link, still managed to clear BFT2/Hard using solely Archery (at least until the boss-room), but could still clear it all within 15m. If my human-character gets caught up to my elf-character, the clear-time (using just archery until the boss-room) would be faster (than the elf), but it seems to me that the most-likely reason is because I don't have a 3ms-ping connection. The human probably couldn't keep up with the DPS if I actually had a real «Internet-connection» but, for now, compared to how my elf misses a lot even with Vision-of-Ladeca, even when I am near point-blank or even at point-blank range, my human-character will simply continue to have much more accurate and reliable archery than my elf.

    Here is my Ping-Test result from a few minutes ago. Everyone else can compare it to your own and see a significant difference in ms.
    hl9w8zE.png
    As I've mentioned before (in some other post), nearly all «arguments/wars» are usually the result of some kind of mis-understanding somewhere, but I really have no «argument» for Elven-Archery's capabilities, provided that it is on a reliably fast connection. The «balance» thing tends to bring up Chain-Blade so with the introduction of the Chain-Talent the earlier transition from complete Novice to a Dan 3 certainly becomes less problematic. I don't think anybody (in their right minds anyway) would care to argue/dispute the significant impact that connection-speed has on Elven-Archery. I don't have a Korea-level connection. I am going to end up missing a lot, even with Vision-of-Ladeca, even if combined with Final-Shot, even if I am at Point-Blank Range, but that seems to be more of a «Connection-Speed» problem than it is to do with the actual Talent-set itself. I might still miss with the human, but not nearly as often, and so, for the connection-speed that I have available to me, Human-Archery is literally preferable over Elven-Archery, which is why I was initially claiming that Human-Archers to me were «better» than Elven-Archers (to me; and if the entire world suddenly had the ping-rate that I do then I suspect that everyone would suddenly favour Human-Archery over Elven-Archery).
    MabiIn2k19 wrote: »
    Habimaru wrote: »
    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<sniP>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    I'm going to drop this because you have zero idea what you're talking about. You're sitting here talking about how tech missions work when you can't even run them, let alone elite where strategy matters. Things like stacking RI and support shot to clear zombie hallway, and you also mentioned a lack of aggro control yet tenacious taunt exists as a skill, shuriken auto attacks with divine link change aggro, there's a lot. As another testament to my point, when g9 came out tail missions weren't harder than tara and on top of that shadow wizard was also harder than bft2. You have an inflated ego assuming you were the only one smart enough to be able to run bft2. If demonizing me as an elitist p2w player helps you deal with being irrelevant running outdated content go for it I'm not going to bother replying.
  • GretaGreta
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    edited December 28, 2019
    Did this dude literally flexed for being able to one shot mob spawn with fully charged critical Fusion Bolt in TDB? Lmfao.
    Alshian
  • AlshianAlshian
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,755
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    I stop caring ages ago :B

    although I said this...but I always come back to see the treat.
  • MabiIn2k19MabiIn2k19
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    Greta wrote: »
    Did this dude literally flexed for being able to one shot mob spawn with fully charged critical Fusion Bolt in TDB? Lmfao.
    Yup. He actually has lower ping than most mabi players too.

    The same guy arguing game balance when every point he has starts with "Well in MY tests/ I don't know everything/ admittedly I don't use that or know about it" then right after tries to make himself look more agreeable saying things like "As I've mentioned before (in some other post), nearly all «arguments/wars» are usually the result of some kind of mis-understanding somewhere"
  • HabimaruHabimaru
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    edited December 28, 2019
    I'll just have to take the hit and play the role of comic-relief for now. I know there are other much more over-kill methods to run what is now a joke of a content to run compared to how it was before, but it was also very efficient, considering how little mana it consumed (Edit/Addendum: given its damage-to-mana-consumption-ratio). These days it seems to be just about damn-near impossible to run out of mana or to even run out of potions so probably no longer necessary to be so excessively cautious with mana-conservation. Now I'm a go beat it~
    Greta wrote: »
    Did this dude literally flexed for being able to one shot mob spawn with fully charged critical Fusion Bolt in TDB? Lmfao.
    Crimsọn
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 64,185
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    Habimaru wrote: »
    I'll just have to take the hit and play the role of comic-relief for now. I know there are other much more over-kill methods to run what is now a joke of a content to run compared to how it was before, but it was also very efficient, considering how little mana it consumed (Edit/Addendum: given its damage-to-mana-consumption-ratio). These days it seems to be just about damn-near impossible to run out of mana or to even run out of potions so probably no longer necessary to be so excessively cautious with mana-conservation. Now I'm a go beat it~
    Greta wrote: »
    Did this dude literally flexed for being able to one shot mob spawn with fully charged critical Fusion Bolt in TDB? Lmfao.

    Just beat it, beat it
    Just beat it, beat it
    Just beat it, beat it
    Just beat it, beat it

    :D
  • HabimaruHabimaru
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    No need to «beat [it]» a dead horse. The fact is that I had not even thought about the ping-delay until I was literally in the middle of making that post, which I am willing to «acknowledge» as MY error, not yours or anybody else who posted. That is typically known as «taking responsibility» rather than acting like a «politician» who cares more about his «image» being that of somebody who can «do no wrong and never makes mistakes» and, furthermore, end-game content is not something that I am unable to do; I am merely unable to solo it. Again, much of it is entirely Gear/DPS-oriented, and whilst there is some «strategy» involved, the vast majority of running the content is still «DPS-a-HUGE-swarm-of-spawns-before-the-timer-runs-out» which I have already managed to accomplish in Baltane-Elite missions.

    I now consistently clear them for the «maximum» rewards, amongst which my own personal-favourite to run is Knights of the Round Table (Elite), from where I got my Demonic Fear Shield as a reward before I figured out how to clear every Baltane-Elite Mission all the way to the very end for maximum-rewards (including now finally Avalon-Bridge on Elite...despite being an Elf with nothing equivalent to Final-Hit). Although I have not entered into Tech-stuff often, the «skill» versus «gear» requirements are still heavily oriented much more in favour of gear, where-as winning used to be just about near PURE «skill» such to the point where it was possible to win against an even much bigger Ogre using just a wooden stick (provided that NO «mistakes» were made in the «timing» of skills and skill-sequences), but in many ways Mabinogi has really become what some people describe as a «clone of every other MMORPG» other than the fact that we're just not «class-restricted» like the others are, so not even «Dragons» are that much of a «threat» any more for Milletians (even newbies) who choose to engage it in combat.

    So I am not necessarily lacking in «skill» to «run end-game» content; I merely don't have 8 billion gold worth of equipment/upgrades/enchants to be able to «beat the timer» (which I have non-uploaded videos of being perfectly capable of beating on a «pure-skill-with-sufficient-equipment-and-strategy» basis for the Baltane-Mission Knights of the Round Table Elite where it really is largely about rushing-to-beat-the-timer) and, even in Tech/Phantasm-dungeons, IF you are «well-geared» then you'd have to be insanely careless to get knocked out. Even when having run the Phantasm/Tech with others, getting «knocked out» was something I was still able to keep it (i.e.: getting knocked out) to an absolute minimum. IF I had a fully stacked deck of «end-game» GEAR to use then clearing that kind of «end-game content» still wouldn't seem like that much of a «challenge» or even as much «fun» to me in comparison to having a more «chess-like» RTS form of what used to be «dungeon-crawling» ...instead, what we have these days is better described as : Dungeon-Rushing.
    MabiIn2k19 wrote: »
    Greta wrote: »
    Did this dude literally flexed for being able to one shot mob spawn with fully charged critical Fusion Bolt in TDB? Lmfao.
    Yup. He actually has lower ping than most mabi players too.

    The same guy arguing game balance when every point he has starts with "Well in MY tests/ I don't know everything/ admittedly I don't use that or know about it" then right after tries to make himself look more agreeable saying things like "As I've mentioned before (in some other post), nearly all «arguments/wars» are usually the result of some kind of mis-understanding somewhere"
  • LutetiumLutetium
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    Habimaru wrote: »
    hl9w8zE.png
    Why are you using some website to ping some random completely unrelated linode server in texas half the country away to the east and the entire country to the south from where Mabinogi is actually hosted?

    afb711060a.png
    Just open Resource Monitor from the Performance tab in Task Manager and look for the port 1102X TCP connection and you can see your actual latency to the channel server, ignore the 8002 latency that's the chat server and not relevant to gameplay.
    Yes it's that easy.
  • HabimaruHabimaru
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    Not that much difference, but, apparently it is even worse for me according to the resource-monitor. One of these days I shall move again to somewhere that has real Internet-connection-speeds like I once did before all of those life-disruptions forced me to end up being somewhat stranded in the middle of nowhere.
    kfMRXjv.png
    My use of Task-Manager is usually limited to keeping an eye out for any potentially suspicious processes running or to force-close a program that isn't shutting down through the regular methods. Most of the time I don't need to have it up and running any more since my system has a fairly optimum set-up for a 4-year-old PC. Although I did have to wipe and re-partition the entire primary HDD back in October for various reasons... namely because I couldn't remember a password from 4 years ago.
    Lutetium wrote: »
    Habimaru wrote: »
    hl9w8zE.png
    Why are you using some website to ping some random completely unrelated linode server in texas half the country away to the east and the entire country to the south from where Mabinogi is actually hosted?

    afb711060a.png
    Just open Resource Monitor from the Performance tab in Task Manager and look for the port 1102X TCP connection and you can see your actual latency to the channel server, ignore the 8002 latency that's the chat server and not relevant to gameplay.
    Yes it's that easy.
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 21,640
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    So, once you have determined your connectivity then we should allow unlimited race change.
  • Larry96Larry96
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    edited January 27, 2020
    ....
  • HabimaruHabimaru
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    Between-birth race-changes would certainly be in order at this stage of Mabinogi's evolution. We're no longer promoting the «extreme racism» between Elves/Giants that there once was. The only issue is with the limitations of those who have «joined in holy matrimony» as the system as it is now does not allow elves and giants to be considered each other's men/women (Note: I am fully aware that there are such words as «husband/wife/spouse/married/child/etc» but I am deliberately avoiding the use of those words due to how the words have apparently be re-defined and apparently even copy-righted in the fraudulent U.S. legalese-system to defraud you).

    How-ever, race-changes should not «convert» your race-specific skills into the next race-equivalent, but you should have to obtain it in the same manner as any other character who started out as said race, and your previous race-specific skills simply become inaccessible. So you can transform into Paladin, have Final-Hit, but then want to become an Elf ? I say you have to re-do the G1-3 Quests again as an Elf to be able to Beast-Transformation, and Final-Hit does not convert to Final-Shot, but instead you do the necessary Quest-Fulfillments to obtain Final-Shot, and Final-Hit becomes unavailable upon race-change into Elf. Don't worry about your hot-keys configuration between race-changes. They apparently already have it set up to where hot-keys while you are in regular mode are saved in a separate configuration than the hot-keys which load upon using Transformation.

    If «Story-Line» is an issue regarding Generations 1-3 (for Transformation), then, there are several possible solutions : It can be some sort of major «Time-Shift» of the time-lines such that it's like you were sent «Back in Time» according to the Time-Line of the Erinn-world as a result of the Race-Change (there's already plenty of «lore» available to allude to such things being possible). Another option is to keep the progression of the Generations but still require a Race-Specific Transformation-Quest to gain Beast-Mode if G(s)1-3 were already completed. Or if we convert Paladin into Beast-Mode, and all of your Paladin-skills are already at Rank 1, you should still need to Rank up all of your Beast-Mode skills from Novice to R1 in order to «catch up» your Beast-Mode to what you had when you were in your Human-Form.
    Helsa wrote: »
    So, once you have determined your connectivity then we should allow unlimited race change.
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 21,640
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    Habimaru wrote: »
    Between-birth race-changes would certainly be in order at this stage of Mabinogi's evolution. We're no longer promoting the «extreme racism» between Elves/Giants that there once was. The only issue is with the limitations of those who have «joined in holy matrimony» as the system as it is now does not allow elves and giants to be considered each other's men/women (Note: I am fully aware that there are such words as «husband/wife/spouse/married/child/etc» but I am deliberately avoiding the use of those words due to how the words have apparently be re-defined and apparently even copy-righted in the fraudulent U.S. legalese-system to defraud you).

    Not just Marriage, which leads to secondary issues, but also EvG issues might lead to an overhaul of the whole PvP system.
    Habimaru wrote: »
    How-ever, race-changes should not «convert» your race-specific skills into the next race-equivalent, but you should have to obtain it in the same manner as any other character who started out as said race, and your previous race-specific skills simply become inaccessible. So you can transform into Paladin, have Final-Hit, but then want to become an Elf ? I say you have to re-do the G1-3 Quests again as an Elf to be able to Beast-Transformation, and Final-Hit does not convert to Final-Shot, but instead you do the necessary Quest-Fulfillments to obtain Final-Shot, and Final-Hit becomes unavailable upon race-change into Elf. Don't worry about your hot-keys configuration between race-changes. They apparently already have it set up to where hot-keys while you are in regular mode are saved in a separate configuration than the hot-keys which load upon using Transformation.

    That hadn't occurred to me. I had figured it would just be like converting between Morgan and Neimhain, where skills get/unget "greyed out".
    Habimaru wrote: »
    If «Story-Line» is an issue regarding Generations 1-3 (for Transformation), then, there are several possible solutions : It can be some sort of major «Time-Shift» of the time-lines such that it's like you were sent «Back in Time» according to the Time-Line of the Erinn-world as a result of the Race-Change (there's already plenty of «lore» available to allude to such things being possible). Another option is to keep the progression of the Generations but still require a Race-Specific Transformation-Quest to gain Beast-Mode if G(s)1-3 were already completed. Or if we convert Paladin into Beast-Mode, and all of your Paladin-skills are already at Rank 1, you should still need to Rank up all of your Beast-Mode skills from Novice to R1 in order to «catch up» your Beast-Mode to what you had when you were in your Human-Form.
    Helsa wrote: »
    So, once you have determined your connectivity then we should allow unlimited race change.

    It shouldn't be that hard in terms of canon. Milletians are aliens who can never really die, adding race change can just be yet another one of our mysterious powers.
  • UwUFurryApocalypseUwUFurryApocalypse
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    edited January 3, 2020
    MabiIn2k19 wrote: »
    my favourite part about these forums is all the end game discussion when there's almost no one here who is even close to endgame. Human archery is better than elf archery? What reality is that from? Humans are the weakest race right now, then again it's not like anyone here actually runs the content they talk about.

    Elf is worst race at end game and it's not even close right now. Elf archery>human archery but archery (and specifically single target mag damage being good on bosses with prot) is all that elf has going for it as a race. Can't compete with LC/SS+LC/lance blading pierce/FH/GFS/perseus knuckles/etc.
  • LutetiumLutetium
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    Elf is worst race at end game and it's not even close right now. Elf archery>human archery but archery (and specifically single target mag damage being good on bosses with prot) is all that elf has going for it as a race. Can't compete with LC/SS+LC/lance blading pierce/FH/GFS/perseus knuckles/etc.
    Generally true on NA since Archery doesn't work here, but ~devils advocate~ Fighter on Elf is only 10% less combo mastery bonus than Human which is 10% less than Giant, Perseus Knuckle alone is 65%, erg 50 is 100%, Combo Mastery reforge is 1% per level up to 10, and the Combo Mastery bonus is 20/30/40 respectively so it isn't that huge a difference in reality, the 50/100 less will from Shine of Eweca Elf has compared to Human/Giant only accounts for 16.6~/33.3~ max due to fighter scaling being will/3. Blade with Lance is also a meme outside of apostle raids, but even then Elf can use Soluna with SAO enchant OR Novel enchanted Divine Crossbow and Destructive robe to get 9 piercing without a Lance and they wouldn't need SS+Lance Charge if Archery actually worked on NA since Mag spam would obliterate that in dps anyway.
    Full Swing's one of the biggest reasons I went over to Giant from Elf but I'd say a fairly comparable, albeit much higher investment, alternative would be Crisis + Flame burst which to be fair can clear Phantasm faster than I've seen Full Swing and Chain do it.


    Heres a Japanese elf using the Puppet+Flame burst combo to great effect. Truth is you can steamroll all the content in the game regardless of race it just depends on how much cash and gold you wanna throw at it including packing up and moving to Oregon to play Elf. But again that's just being devils advocate, I still think Final Hit completely breaks any semblance of race balance and even more so with Archery not functioning correct without sub-10ms latencies.
  • UwUFurryApocalypseUwUFurryApocalypse
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    The issue is that elf used to be considered the single target DPS race, giants multi-target, and humans a mix between both. If elf single target DPS is no longer a premium (due to LC/perseus competing with it), what does elf offer? Elf multi target is incredibly weak compared to human/giant and if they're doing well in single target then there's no reason for elf.

    Phantasm also isn't even end game content at this point, it's midgame content. Any giant/human can also do puppet+flame burst combo, what does elf have to offer over the other 2 races? That's why elf is the weakest race atm at end game.