Check out all of the details of this month's Patch Notes, featuring the Reflections: Reforged update!
https://mabinogi.nexon.net/news/69963/reflections-reforged-patch-notes-november-4th-2021
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Apocalypse Raid Update Preview

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  • UnpayedUnpayed
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    Stormbeast wrote: »
    Unpayed wrote: »
    I would use the tank role outside of the mission if I can defend myself more from getting 400-1000+ damage from Heroic Alban. And I thought Phantasm was unfair. Better be yeeted/SuccubusQueen'D there.

    The tank would actually take more damage in the TTK than usual due to reducing your damage more than it reduces incoming damage. The main use for it in the raid is Crowd Control, with the guide creator even mentioning that it's usefulness inside the raid depends on how Tenacious Taunt effects the Mutant.
    Unpayed wrote: »
    I'm curious if Mabi would update itself with "Roles". Looking at them in the google docs above brings me... hope. I'm actually like the idea. I just hope there would be some sort of role that does that outside of this.

    EDIT: Looking through this... MHW Behemoth? Ecliptic Meteor? (We are already dead) o_o
    EDIT2: I just realized that the devs might be playing too much Monster Hunter World.
    "Roles" have already be implemented in Mabi, for quite some time (at least 5 generation updates ago). With Apostle Raids, the party is broken down into shielders, spikers, and bladers, with 1 or 2 people also labled as support/debuff in charge of getting the apostle ready for max damage every blade.

    Outside of that and into other content (Techs, Phantasm, Puri) it's usually discussed beforehand what "role" somebody will be playing,
    Crowd Contol, Debuff/Buff, DPS, Def/Prot Peeling, ect. Higher level content is not feasible without some kind of plan or playbook.

    Phantasm is easy with a party that's aware of the mechanics and how to avoid them and even soloable for the people that are even considering this Death Trap of a content run.

    *Did notice with another run through of the guide, that DPS role actually lacks dealing more damage and instead opts to increase time on 2 techs, and give a buff to lance charge which buffs races unequally (with elves getting nothing due to being unable to lance)

    1. I will still use the Tank role. Crowd control is something Mabi lacks out of using Puppetry(?), Divine Link (Useless outside of harder content), Sand Burst (Somewhat), and other skills I might not have noticed yet.

    2. As in that assigning yourself in a role on the field and ACTUALLY giving you certain skills/effects, not something that's "assigned" and assumed that you are on that role. Would be nice if they introduce that as skills.

    3. Of course. Anything that doesn't have a gimmick (MagMell, Phantasm, Tech) is often "Attack, Chug Potion, Attack, Chug Potion, Don't die, Attack, Run, Avoid AoE, Mana Shield, etc."

    4. Tech and Phantasm is usually just DPS. Well, I only did Balor Tech, so I can't assume the rest. Phantasm? Still DPS. No healing outside of potions and glyphs. Havent done most of the Avalon Purifications yet, so can't assume.

    5. I've already cleared Phantasm with a good crew enough that I feel confident. Or suicidal confident.

    6. I still wonder if they actually use playtesters that doesn't use OP reforges during testing.


  • StormbeastStormbeast
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,280
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    1) most combat talents have some sort of CC or way of dealing with multiaggro. Fighter is the main exception but makes up for it by being one of the highest single target DPS talents in the game. Frozen blast, wind blast, rain casting, Ice Spear, windmill....all of these can give a player a bit of breathing room. Also Divine Link has excellent uses from increasing exp gain to being able to farm bone chips without lots of feathers.

    2) Outside of specific content, I don't see how assigned roles would be anything different than just talent based skills. We already have GM effects which can make a talent stronger, and unless the skills were locked into which talent you chose on your rebirth, it would just be more skills that everybody would rank and just increase higher power creep leading to higher power level content.

    3) Outside of the high level content (Mag mell, Phant, Tech) you're mostly right, but you can just cut it to "Link, Buff, Attack, Repeat"

    4) Techs and Phant all have different mechanics; 7 nightmares prohits pets altogether, has 3 different types of waves before the boss each requiring different setups, Kraken has 5-6 different areas where the plan (and usually weapons) change, Feth has a specific area thats the worst DPS gate (single hit, consistent damage, timed), and even Balor (Illusion) has rooms that require something other than just DPS. Purification is mostly Def/prot peeling and DPS, but you have to know the mechanics to work around.

    5) I get that, my guild has multiple people that can solo, and I know the mechanics, but it's still rough for me to work through

    6) Unfortunately we don't know what the playtesters are using, but we do know that the mission is doable. It's not saying that it's easy. Personally I find any insta-kill move really cheap bc it basically sidesteps all the work on skills, stats, and gear for survivability, like a lvl 20k player dying in basic Shadow Realm Champion b/c they didn't see Dullahan spawn and suddenly have no hp left.

    I would love to see a role suggestion that wouldn't lead to powercreep though. What could be done to just prevent people from using all role skills and just becoming more OP?

  • UnpayedUnpayed
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,230
    Posts: 45
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    edited September 19
    Stormbeast wrote: »
    1) most combat talents have some sort of CC or way of dealing with multiaggro. Fighter is the main exception but makes up for it by being one of the highest single target DPS talents in the game. Frozen blast, wind blast, rain casting, Ice Spear, windmill....all of these can give a player a bit of breathing room. Also Divine Link has excellent uses from increasing exp gain to being able to farm bone chips without lots of feathers.

    2) Outside of specific content, I don't see how assigned roles would be anything different than just talent based skills. We already have GM effects which can make a talent stronger, and unless the skills were locked into which talent you chose on your rebirth, it would just be more skills that everybody would rank and just increase higher power creep leading to higher power level content.

    3) Outside of the high level content (Mag mell, Phant, Tech) you're mostly right, but you can just cut it to "Link, Buff, Attack, Repeat"

    4) Techs and Phant all have different mechanics; 7 nightmares prohits pets altogether, has 3 different types of waves before the boss each requiring different setups, Kraken has 5-6 different areas where the plan (and usually weapons) change, Feth has a specific area thats the worst DPS gate (single hit, consistent damage, timed), and even Balor (Illusion) has rooms that require something other than just DPS. Purification is mostly Def/prot peeling and DPS, but you have to know the mechanics to work around.

    5) I get that, my guild has multiple people that can solo, and I know the mechanics, but it's still rough for me to work through

    6) Unfortunately we don't know what the playtesters are using, but we do know that the mission is doable. It's not saying that it's easy. Personally I find any insta-kill move really cheap bc it basically sidesteps all the work on skills, stats, and gear for survivability, like a lvl 20k player dying in basic Shadow Realm Champion b/c they didn't see Dullahan spawn and suddenly have no hp left.

    I would love to see a role suggestion that wouldn't lead to powercreep though. What could be done to just prevent people from using all role skills and just becoming more OP?

    1. Assuming we don't get sniped/bolted/knockedbacked. I use Sandburst to disrupt those Fiends/Wraiths when Pets aren't an option.

    2. Alternative solution: Get better playtesters/balance makers. Still, I want someday they would add Role skills. Players who might not be able to get the useful techs would at least use that...

    3. Agreed. With Buff, Link in somewhere in between.

    4. I had old friends quit because they couldn't get pass the DPS gate in that Illusion zombie.

    5. My guild is basically that. They have soloers. I can provide average combat, just being squishy as hell is my problem.

    6. Yes, it's doable when the testers clear it. It's just the "What equipment and stats are you using?" and "Would this content be run-able without the use of OP Reforges?"

    As for the role, I would say changing is restricted in dungeons, it's a rebirth thing, or by an NPC.
  • StormbeastStormbeast
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,280
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    I'm not saying role skills would be bad, I just don't see how much they could add before just being powercreep. Low-leveled players can use them, get past apocalypse gens quicker, start running techs with groups (getting stuck behind certain DPS checks without a higher level). Access to normal technique abilities will just compound the role skills. And High Power players will just get higher in power which will require harder content.

    For Example: role skills DPS, Tank, Support

    DPS: increase damage and magic damage by 10-20%?
    Tank: increase HP 500-1000, reduce damage and magic damage 10-20%, reduce damage taken by 10-20%
    Support: increase music buff effect and duration, increase healing and party healing 200%, decrease damage 20-40%

    Any person that currently doesn't have a survivability problem outside of insta-kills would most likely just take the DPS roles for extra damage output, would be most effective for higher damaging players and solo players

    Tanking would slightly help in mid-game content that doesn't do % damage (girg), would still be up to the player to pull aggro for CC. Mostly would be used to help survivability in late-game.

    Support would only get chosen by a low damage output character that's main job would be to provide buffs and debuffs.


    Support and Tank wouldn't change too much for powercreep, but also would only be a viable option in party settings and in mid-late game as early game content (and for all solo missions) generally the damage boost would provide better survivability.

    I feel like a Personalized item (me inv) that has a long cooldown or cannot be used inside SR or Dungeons would be a better way to lock the Roles in. Locked behind rebirths and f2p players can only swap roles 1 time every 6 days (without events). NPC would be inconvenient between runs to have to run to a specific location if you need to swap.
  • UnpayedUnpayed
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,230
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    edited September 19
    Mabinogi needs powercreep anyways. The endgame content REQUIRES Reforges, this probably is a "balance" to those who can't afford the reforges or hates the system. Myself? If I'm wasting 100+ USD on reforges that I do want, then something is wrong. Better chance to get a CSGO rare item. Or even a new game.

    Q: What you running X?
    A: Getting a mat for better equipment/Trying to get junk to forge into a weapon forged from broken pieces, lel.

    Q: What's stopping you?
    A: DropRates/MobA/MobB/Gimmick/Boss/Aggro/Morale

    I'm a mid- Lategame* character. Squishy as hell, Relies on crit damage to deal the DPS needed. Most of the time. If I'm carrying, then something is wrong. "I wish I can do 10k-20k damage like that each time..."
    * I don't have reforges outside of the Blaanid wand*

    The Rebirth lock... depends if how much often we get rebirth pots. The NPC route could be at multiple areas. But yes, I would say an item that's always equipped. (or at least, a feature in a UI or something.)
  • StormbeastStormbeast
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,280
    Posts: 142
    Member
    edited September 19
    Unpayed wrote: »
    Mabinogi needs powercreep anyways. The endgame content REQUIRES Reforges, this probably is a "balance" to those who can't afford the reforges or hates the system. Myself? If I'm wasting 100+ USD on reforges that I do want, then something is wrong. Better chance to get a CSGO rare item. Or even a new game.

    Some would argue that powercreep is what has lead us to this point. The Devs give us content that only a select group of players have a good chance of completing but all players have access to the in-game resources to be able to complete them. (Eg. erg to make weapons stronger, techs to craft the BiS weapons)
    Unpayed wrote: »
    Q: What you running X?
    A: Getting a mat for better equipment/Trying to get junk to forge into a weapon forged from broken pieces, lel.

    Q: What's stopping you?
    A: DropRates/MobA/MobB/Gimmick/Boss/Aggro/Morale

    I'm a mid- Lategame* character. Squishy as hell, Relies on crit damage to deal the DPS needed. Most of the time. If I'm carrying, then something is wrong. "I wish I can do 10k-20k damage like that each time..."
    * I don't have reforges outside of the Blaanid wand*

    Obviously I don't know your stats, but squishy can be relative to the mob you're fighting. For late game mobs, most people would recommend defensive techs Dampen Shock and Blunting Field to reduce being squishy. Reforges are optional at this point, I don't have the best reforges bc I'm mostly f2p ($50 USD in the past 8 years). Dungeon Guide provides reforges for the dungeon guide equipment, and we get quite a few events that provide fine and credne's reforges as well. Also there will be an in-game option and more balanced rates for reforges coming soon to help bridge the gap.

    Not all content is for everybody, and there will always be a power gap, the difference is that the min-maxers are the ones that will benefit most by increasing that power gap (aka powercreep). Eg. the fewer people able to run Kraken for a heart, the higher the price of the heart. And sure drop rate adds value as well, but drop rate matters less as more people can run it.
  • UnpayedUnpayed
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,230
    Posts: 45
    Member
    Stormbeast wrote: »
    Unpayed wrote: »
    Mabinogi needs powercreep anyways. The endgame content REQUIRES Reforges, this probably is a "balance" to those who can't afford the reforges or hates the system. Myself? If I'm wasting 100+ USD on reforges that I do want, then something is wrong. Better chance to get a CSGO rare item. Or even a new game.

    Some would argue that powercreep is what has lead us to this point. The Devs give us content that only a select group of players have a good chance of completing but all players have access to the in-game resources to be able to complete them. (Eg. erg to make weapons stronger, techs to craft the BiS weapons)
    Unpayed wrote: »
    Q: What you running X?
    A: Getting a mat for better equipment/Trying to get junk to forge into a weapon forged from broken pieces, lel.

    Q: What's stopping you?
    A: DropRates/MobA/MobB/Gimmick/Boss/Aggro/Morale

    I'm a mid- Lategame* character. Squishy as hell, Relies on crit damage to deal the DPS needed. Most of the time. If I'm carrying, then something is wrong. "I wish I can do 10k-20k damage like that each time..."
    * I don't have reforges outside of the Blaanid wand*

    Obviously I don't know your stats, but squishy can be relative to the mob you're fighting. For late game mobs, most people would recommend defensive techs Dampen Shock and Blunting Field to reduce being squishy. Reforges are optional at this point, I don't have the best reforges bc I'm mostly f2p ($50 USD in the past 8 years). Dungeon Guide provides reforges for the dungeon guide equipment, and we get quite a few events that provide fine and credne's reforges as well. Also there will be an in-game option and more balanced rates for reforges coming soon to help bridge the gap.

    Not all content is for everybody, and there will always be a power gap, the difference is that the min-maxers are the ones that will benefit most by increasing that power gap (aka powercreep). Eg. the fewer people able to run Kraken for a heart, the higher the price of the heart. And sure drop rate adds value as well, but drop rate matters less as more people can run it.

    1. I unfortunately don't have Dampen Shock avaliable (DEF and the population not helping me in Shield of Trust much). I take this weakness into account. It's not helping trying to level Blunting Field is hard/expensive.

    2. Netting 2-10 reforges is fine. Not getting the recommended reforges for your equipment, however, is not. Having the reforge you want, but not the three lines and having them changed because you don't have three lines is horrible.

    3. There's a difference between running 100+ Adv/Elite Krakens and NEVER GETTING ONE, according to a guildie who does that everyday- assuming no one from his crews gets one.

    A game shouldn't lock endgame content by Pay2Win. Oh wait, that's what games are doing now, never mind.
  • StormbeastStormbeast
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,280
    Posts: 142
    Member
    In actuality, reforges are bad by design. In practice most equipment would be better as a 1-2 line with the reforge you actually wanted (as there is generally 1-2 "dead" reforges anyways.

    I do understand the frustration with having to rank crusader skills, most can be done (really slowly) in solo raid. Shield will need 2 other players for ranks 5-1. I'm not sure about your guild, but mine will always tag along for a 30 min shield training and it's super helpful for the newer and not-so-active players.

    Leveling techs is expensive, see if you can find some open spots on tech missions to join. Lots of balloons in the fishing boxes, and most techs don't penalize deaths (Revived Illusion gives the boss a buff per player death before the boss).

    I have a guildie like that too, he's always spamming kraken and other techs/phantasm. He's personally never gotten a heart, but on 2 of his runs another guildie has dropped a heart.

    They are actively trying balance and reduce the f2p vs paid players power gap through ingame options. The most Valuable thing a person can buy is the VIP service, and that doesn't inherently make somebody more powerful, but it does give the player more options on content to run.