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New Metals

KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
Mabinogi Rep: 33,160
Posts: 7,646
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edited September 12, 2018 in Feedback and Suggestions
We have a good variety of metals in this game, we have almost all the common names of common metals.
Iron, copper, silver, gold and the legendary mythril ore for normal smithing. There's the new ores from Hillwen Tin, Nickel, Zinc and Hillwen ore.
There is also the unknown ore that is popular in alchemy.
But I feel that mining on all ends has not reached its full potential and the smithing/crafting talents and skills can be a whole lot more if there were new metals that can be made and new uses for the natural resources.

For one, in reality, copper and tin can be mixed to make bronze. So as a starter, bronze items can be useful. In history, bronze was not only used for tools and weaponry, but also used in art like sculptures.

(Speaking of sculptures, Bangor trade goods has marble, but yet there are no marble quarries that exist or any use for it. I think quarrying for stone and its uses need updates as well).

Steelmaking should also be made possible. Steel is made by various molecular bonding when iron is heated with carbon material like coal (and there is the Bangor coal in commerce). In the real world, during the time of Tuatha de Dannon steel had been created in Asia and its knowledge slowly spread. In the Middle Ages, people sought the famed Damascus steel, so if steel can be perhaps some rare metal that can be made it can bring smithing to new areas.

And not to forget about another legendary (fictional) metal. Orichalculm. Which is said by some to rival mythril and/or also has uses in alchemy.

And while we're at it with earthen raw materials, why not glassblowing. There is glass in Erinn after all. And how about gathering clay and making pottery?

And also looking at Bangor's commerce products, does anyone wonder what we can do with Highland Ore if it was a player accessible material?

THICCthighssavelivesBronzebreakAlshianGremmledlebrgr
  1. So I ask the community, do you want new metals to revive the Erinn mining/smithing/crafting industry23 votes
    1. Yes
       65% (15 votes)
    2. No
       30% (7 votes)
    3. Or your own comment
       4% (1 vote)

Comments

  • nomigid15nomigid15
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,125
    Posts: 174
    Member
    edited September 6, 2018
    Alloying would certainly be an interesting addition. Perhaps it could use a ratio-based system to determine the end product. For example, when alloying Copper and Tin, how much of each used will determine whether you get Bronze (more Copper than Tin) or Pewter (more Tin than Copper).

    Also, perhaps we could incorporate metals (including any new ones) into Alchemy.

    http://forums.mabinogi.nexon.net/discussion/6544/possible-additions-to-alchemy
    KensamaofmariTHICCthighssavelivesledlebrgr
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,125
    Posts: 661
    Member
    edited September 7, 2018
    That would probably involve re-working the current crafting system. But here's the thing, we're not exactly set in a scientific environment, steel making involved processes and techniques passed on from master to apprentice who do not know what's happening besides that it works. Its implied that the manual contains instructions not only for the shape and design of the weapon, but also the forging process of metal work needed to make a material most suited for that weapon's shape and design. We're also not sure how the anvils are actually operated, we may be feeding wood into it, but we could be more accurately being feeding it with charcoal (charcoal can reach temps needed to melt metals more easily). So specific forging techniques could be using the carbon in the charcoal to infuse into the iron we commonly forge with using techniques and processes described in the manual.
  • XafnirXafnir
    Mabinogi Rep: 720
    Posts: 18
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    GTCvActium wrote: »
    That would probably involve re-working the current crafting system. But here's the thing, we're not exactly set in a scientific environment, steel making involved processes and techniques passed on from master to apprentice who do not know what's happening besides that it works. Its implied that the manual contains instructions not only for the shape and design of the weapon, but also the forging process of metal work needed to make a material most suited for that weapon's shape and design. We're also not sure how the anvils are actually operated, we may be feeding wood into it, but we could be more accurately being feeding it with charcoal (charcoal can reach temps needed to melt metals more easily). So specific forging techniques could be using the carbon in the charcoal to infuse into the iron we commonly forge with using techniques and processes described in the manual.

    True but we have masters like Edern for who we can just create a discovery backstory and say that he discovered how this works and shared it with the rest of the world. Or we could just remake the refining skill to take quantities similar to cooking and get the alloys stated above. Plus OP never said anything to force it to a scientific setting, as implied we have Orichalculm and Mythril so imo it would be a nice addition without that big of a story impact.
    KensamaofmariYangKoete
  • SaintxSwordsSaintxSwords
    Mabinogi Rep: 780
    Posts: 8
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    Adamantium would be an interesting addition as well since it's already in the story. It was used to create the skeletal frame of glas ghaibleann and is the strongest metal known to erinn. Tho it's supposed to be extremely rare and if it is implemented, it might be a little game breaking (also story breaking) because it nullifies magic and there isn't supposed to be enough in all of erinn to create a whole glas skeletal frame.

    Making a less potent version obtainable via alchemy would be really cool. Imagine being able to summon a mini glas ghaibleann as a golem or having an adamantium shield.

    More info here:
    https://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/The_Embodiment_of_Destruction,_Glas_Ghaibhleann
    KensamaofmariTHICCthighssavelives
  • THICCthighssavelivesTHICCthighssavelives
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,845
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    I'd love to use brass for making furniture and actual bronze for making weapons and armor. We could make electrum with gold and silver, or white gold with gold and zinc.
    https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/difference-between-copper-brass-bronze/

    I think every iron item we smith in-game is basically steel. I personally would not have fun going through the entire steelmaking process in the game, even though I find it very interesting. It's just an aspect of reality I am willing to sacrifice in the name of convenience.
    KensamaofmariBronzebreakYangKoete
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 15,460
    Posts: 3,371
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    They can add the new metals when they add Dwarves to the games!

    D-W-A-R-V-E-S!!!!!!!
    JazmynYangKoeteKensamaofmari
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,940
    Posts: 2,759
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    Helsa wrote: »
    They can add the new metals when they add Dwarves to the games!

    D-W-A-R-V-E-S!!!!!!!

    Wouldn't they just be short giants that are even more unfashionable?
    Come on now.
  • JazmynJazmyn
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,585
    Posts: 1,009
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    edited September 9, 2018
    Helsa wrote: »
    They can add the new metals when they add Dwarves to the games!

    D-W-A-R-V-E-S!!!!!!!

    Wouldn't they just be short giants that are even more unfashionable?
    Come on now.

    Males would require (edit: Full) beards though. No other option available.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 33,160
    Posts: 7,646
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    edited September 9, 2018
    Jazmyn wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    They can add the new metals when they add Dwarves to the games!

    D-W-A-R-V-E-S!!!!!!!

    Wouldn't they just be short giants that are even more unfashionable?
    Come on now.

    Males would require (edit: Full) beards though. No other option available.

    And singing

    Far over the Misty Mountains cold,
    To dungeons deep and caverns old,
    We must away, ere break of day,
    To seek our pale enchanted gold.

    The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
    While hammers fell like ringing bells,
    In places deep, where dark things sleep,
    In hollow halls beneath the fells.

    For ancient king and elvish lord
    There many a gleaming golden hoard
    They shaped and wrought, and light they caught,
    To hide in gems on hilt of sword.

    On silver necklaces they strung
    The flowering stars, on crowns they hung
    The dragon-fire, on twisted wire
    They meshed the light of moon and sun.

    Far over the Misty Mountains cold,
    To dungeons deep and caverns old,
    We must away, ere break of day,
    To claim our long-forgotten gold.

    Goblets they carved there for themselves,
    And harps of gold, where no man delves
    There lay they long, and many a song
    Was sung unheard by men or elves.
    JazmynGremm
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 15,460
    Posts: 3,371
    Member
    Jazmyn wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    They can add the new metals when they add Dwarves to the games!

    D-W-A-R-V-E-S!!!!!!!

    Wouldn't they just be short giants that are even more unfashionable?
    Come on now.

    Males would require (edit: Full) beards though. No other option available.

    And singing

    Far over the Misty Mountains cold,
    To dungeons deep and caverns old,
    We must away, ere break of day,
    To seek our pale enchanted gold.

    The dwarves of yore made mighty spells,
    While hammers fell like ringing bells,
    In places deep, where dark things sleep,
    In hollow halls beneath the fells.

    For ancient king and elvish lord
    There many a gleaming golden hoard
    They shaped and wrought, and light they caught,
    To hide in gems on hilt of sword.

    On silver necklaces they strung
    The flowering stars, on crowns they hung
    The dragon-fire, on twisted wire
    They meshed the light of moon and sun.

    Far over the Misty Mountains cold,
    To dungeons deep and caverns old,
    We must away, ere break of day,
    To claim our long-forgotten gold.

    Goblets they carved there for themselves,
    And harps of gold, where no man delves
    There lay they long, and many a song
    Was sung unheard by men or elves.

    It would not surprise me if when Nexon was developing the Giants for Mabinogi that they started out as Dwarves. Krug retains the original male giant body type. His proportions are quite dwarf-like. There are other dwarf-like features retained by the giants: the most notable being that they have an antagonistic relationship with elves.

    That being said I'd still like to have dwarves anyway. Males AND Females would have the option for beards but they wouldn't have to though; Dopey is beardless after all. :) Dwarven females would have to be capable of being attractive too though; WoWc I think failed there. Maybe dwarf girls could be built more like Hip Hop models so they could be stocky and cute?
    Kensamaofmari
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 33,160
    Posts: 7,646
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    Got some interesting insight going on here.
  • THICCthighssavelivesTHICCthighssavelives
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,845
    Posts: 790
    Member
    edited September 10, 2018
    Helsa wrote: »
    That being said I'd still like to have dwarves anyway. Males AND Females would have the option for beards but they wouldn't have to though; Dopey is beardless after all. :) Dwarven females would have to be capable of being attractive too though; WoWc I think failed there. Maybe dwarf girls could be built more like Hip Hop models so they could be stocky and cute?

    like this?

    sRKablD.jpg

    Hillwen engineering technology will spread across Erinn and fuse with refining and smithing (IRL Extractive Metallurgy and Metalworking, respectively). Wouldn't it be neat to make a pickaxe out of hillwen, or use an engineering hammer in place of a blacksmith hammer? Edern will send his daughter to study Hillwen Engineering under Hector in the Hillwen Mines, and Hector will send one of his interim engineers to study with Edern. Elves will be banned from using or looking at Hillwen. Imagine the possibilities!
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 33,160
    Posts: 7,646
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    If that's the case, should also fuse with alchemy.
    It would be neat to make more items other than equipment and tools as well.
    Maybe they'll finally do something with Dragon Excavation Site where Seumas has been digging at the same spot for eternity.
    JazmynTHICCthighssavelivesYangKoete
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 33,160
    Posts: 7,646
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    I just watched Nova on PBS and they did a program about making late medieval armor, Renaissance armor that could stop early gun/musket shots. A lot of science like we've discussed so far. Very interesting.
  • THICCthighssavelivesTHICCthighssavelives
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,845
    Posts: 790
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    edited September 17, 2018
    ^ Metal conversion is definitely related, but in my head I have a hard time making alchemy fit in with blacksmithing. Mabi's version of alchemy seems a lot more magical, fantastical, and chance-based compared to mabi's relatively realistic version of metal smelting and forging.

    According to wikipedia, IRL alchemy is basically old (incorrect) chemistry written in secretive code. Mabi's alchemy on the other hand is a mix or chance, magic, and science. It's really tricky to comprehend rationally. The battle alchemy skills are like an alternative form of elemental magic but with earth as an extra combat element. The transmutation skills are like a combination of chance, equivalent exchange, and like... time reversal. Synthesis has this element of chance, where the universe trades with you for something of similar value. Fragmentation does the same, but the universe looks backwards in time somehow to give you the constituent components of an object in return for the actual object. Metal conversion is the odd one out that doesn't follow equivalent exchange (maybe that's ok since it's a concept from FMA and not mabi :D), specifically that it allows you to directly upgrade a metal without needing to 'pay' anything in return for the upgrade.

    I'm rambling now... In the end I think alchemy is too magical to fit with blacksmithing. I would group Alchemy with Magic, Apothecary, and Magic Craft.
    Jazmyn
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 33,160
    Posts: 7,646
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    ^ Metal conversion is definitely related, but in my head I have a hard time making alchemy fit in with blacksmithing. Mabi's version of alchemy seems a lot more magical, fantastical, and chance based than mabi's relatively realistic version of metal smelting and forging.

    According to wikipedia, IRL alchemy is basically old (incorrect) chemistry written in secretive code. Mabi's alchemy on the other hand is really tricky to comprehend rationally. The battle alchemy skills are like an alternative to elemental magic but with an extra element. The transmutation skills are like a combination of chance, equivalent exchange, and like... time reversal. Synthesis has this element of chance, where the universe trades with you for something of similar value. Fragmentation does the same, but the universe looks backwards in time somehow to give you the constituent components of an object in return for the actual object. Metal conversion is the odd one out that doesn't follow equivalent exchange (maybe that's ok since it's a concept from FMA and not mabi :D), specifically that it allows you to directly upgrade a metal without needing to 'pay' anything in return for the upgrade.

    I'm rambling now... In the end I think alchemy is a better fit with apothecary, with potion-making and herbalism being a sort of edible alchemy.

    So you're saying that the alchemic/chemistry bonds of metal making should be kept as part of the refining process?
    In my opinion, why not use alchemy to make a certain type of mat that can be bonded with metals to make a better ingot during refining?
    Or is that too complicated?
  • THICCthighssavelivesTHICCthighssavelives
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    edited September 17, 2018
    According to my previous post, it's a "yes" to your first question, but I have changed my mind since then. I was saying that alchemy should be separate from blacksmithing because alchemy is too fantasy based. I thought metal conversion and refining represented two different practical skills. Metal Conversion skill represented how well you can work a dry oven to alter the four elements of a solid metal, and Refining represented how well you can work a forge to refine and manipulate molten metal. I felt that alchemy, specifically the Transmutation passive skill, was the theory, and metal conversion/refining were the practical applications.

    I thought about it since then, and now I think we can mix metal conversion and refining. My reasoning: Whatever it is alchemists do in front of that dry oven maybe blacksmiths can perform the same thing in front of a forge. Would this new "Alchemic Refining" skill replace both Metal Conversion and Refining, or would it be a separate skill? How would we fit it into the lore? We could send Eabha, the boy master alchemist, to live with Meles, the 16yo Elf blacksmith, and they could co-invent some sort of alchemic furnace so we can alchemically convert metals and ores while we smelt them. (Then 10 years later they get married lol)

    Your second question, a material obtained only from alchemy for use in refining? It would be nice to produce a rare metal with metal conversion or synthesis that cannot be found naturally in Erinn. For example, metal convert mythril into some rare metal like mercury, bismuth, platinum, or adamantium.
    KensamaofmariYangKoete
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    Mercury is toxic, so what would we use it for?
    As well as for the other suggestions?
    Are there anything other than equipment that should be made that players can use?
  • THICCthighssavelivesTHICCthighssavelives
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    edited September 17, 2018
    The most applicable use for mercury in Erinn is to extract gold from gold deposits, but gold so plentiful in Erinn that there's no real use for mercury unless you want a good quality thermometer or barometer. Bismuth is used in high tech applications that don't fit well with Mabi, so that's out. Platinum is like a denser, rarer, silver-colored version of gold. We Milletians don't make jewelry in Erinn so that's useless to us too. Adamantium is the best choice, but, as SaintxSwords warned, it might be OP and lore breaking.

    Maybe the easiest path would be to make mythril ore obtainable only through alchemy and remove it from mining and metallurgy.

    Mythril can take the role of the very rare, super light yet very strong metal that is not found in nature. Hillwen can take the role of the hard-to-extract, super dense, super hard metal. Maybe one day we can have different mines for different ores, even for the three new engineering ores so we can mine them directly. Examples: drop an iron ore on Barri altar to enter an iron mine, drop a tin ore to enter a tin mine, and so on for zinc, nickel, copper, and silver. Hopefully gold can become rarer than it is now so that the metallurgy skill can be used primarily for gathering gold and gems in sand.

    To answer your last question of what to make with these new metals, we can use them to make musical instruments, jewelry, furniture, potions, dyes and spray paints, magical ink for writing our own skill books, tattoo ink, different colored fireworks, flares to light up dark areas, food for monsters/pets/golems, coin minting...
    Kensamaofmari
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    It would be cool if we can make our own accessories other than rely on VIP giveaways, but that would kind of ruin some of the perks of VIP service.
    But then, crafting your own accessories to me has more value.
    Jazmyn