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Dear Nexon: STOP RUINING THE ECONOMY

PheonixferaPheonixfera
Mabinogi Rep: 1,030
Posts: 3
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in Feedback and Suggestions
So, I normally really don't get upset regarding game stuff, but this is pissing me off. For the last couple of events, Nexon has given out "Lost 100 million gold checks". Let me explain to you why this is a horrible idea. It destroys the in-game economy. It makes the gold worthless. Not only that, but because gold has become so ubiquitous via people using bots to stockpile and sell it, the price of everything has skyrocketed. People who sold gold to others (I've never bought or sold gold, but I've noticed it) sold it for 3m for $10 JUST 3 YEARS AGO. Now, gold has decreased in value by over 3x. This is crazy!

Dear Nexon. Stop ruining the in-game economy. Stop giving away such ridiculous amounts of gold and create a way to get rid of such a ubiquitous amount of gold so that the economy can stabilize. These prices are part of the reason the game is dying: gold is too hard to get in large amounts unless you buy it. ( AND DO NOT TAKE THAT AS "Oh, lets just make gold easier to get then." I swear to god)
GretaSherriNegumikoDanievictriaDraechEmilieBerryJJTHICCthighssavelivesPanPlatinaKoki

Comments

  • GretaGreta
    Mabinogi Rep: 51,805
    Posts: 6,975
    Member
    I fully agree with you. I don't understand why they aren't listening to us.

    Pan
  • DanievictriaDanievictria
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,695
    Posts: 313
    Member
    edited June 21, 2019
    The problem of huge amounts of currency in the in-game economy is a hard one to tackle. Just putting in new high cash value gold sinks isn't always the best option, because that can cause a problem of players who want whatever items/benefits are offered to make the gold sinks enticing in the first place but can't afford them either crying foul over the high prices, grinding endlessly to try and come up with the gold to pay for these items/benefits to the detriment of any meaningful progression, or going right to the gold sellers for a quick fix and making the botting problem worse without really fixing the inflation problem. Two of the game's most ubiquitous minor gold sinks (weapon repairs and bank deposit fees), are more of a drain on the finances of less well-off players than an aid to sucking cash out of the pockets of the wealthiest players, meanwhile...which is just frustrating.

    Large scale "Millionaire Center" style gold sinks alone aren't enough to fix the inflation that comes from excess gold build-up in the system (I know, I've seen those types of gold sinks fail miserably time and again in other games), but a combination of minor gold sinks (updating the inn to instantly fully restore a player's mana, health, and stamina [including wounds and hunger] for a fee of 10 gold per point, for instance) and an effort to increase the circulation of currency in the in-game economy (for instance, getting shoppers and sellers to spread out to two or three shopping channels on a server instead of all fighting to get on a single channel for their buying and selling needs) could help when it comes to gold held by actual human players. As for the gold sellers and their bots, they need to come up with a good system that can recognize the behavioral patterns of bot accounts and gold sellers. You know, like detecting when a player gives away large sums of gold or trades large sums of gold for relatively worthless items on a frequent basis or being able to pick up on gameplay patterns that seem unnatural compared to how human players generally act in-game. That would require a lot of time, work, and data analysis to suss out what "normal" behavior patterns for human players during a typical play session looks like, but it would be well worth it.

    Balancing an in-game economy is tough, though. There will always be people who try to use bots to farm gold or no-life it to pull in huge sums of gold themselves and sell it to other players for real money, TOS or no TOS. There will always be people who either just really like seeing those numbers in their bank account go up or have just run out of stuff to spend their money on and mostly just sit on these massive amounts of gold (usually, the latter are higher-level/further-along players who've been in the game for years and only ever buy stuff that they don't feel like farming/crafting/spending real money on themselves or whatever the latest rare and powerful end-game thing to come out is). And, there will always be those low-level items that are basically the only thing that low-level players have to sell on the in-game market (that's all they can craft, or get from events/mobs/dungeons), but no one actually wants to buy...especially in a game that's older and very top-heavy with end-game players. Getting around those things is the kicker.

    TL;DR

    To fix the economy, the game needs:

    1. Better, more thorough bot detection and elimination systems.

    2. More small gold sinks that are seamlessly integrated into the game so that they don't feel like an interruption to or intrusion upon gameplay flow, such as updating the inn to serve as a place to get your character instantly fully recovered (health, wound, mana, hunger, and stamina) for a fee based on how bad off you are (10-20 Gold per point or so).

    3. No Neopets-style "Millionaire Center" gold sinks. They never work well.

    4. And incentive for people to shop and set up shop on more than just one stinking channel on the server. If you can't get on the shopping channel to shop, or you can't get on the channel to sell anything, then you can't participate properly in the player economy. Spread the shops and shoppers out by, say, charging a set-up fee for your kiosk or shop bag if there are more than a certain number of shops already open on a channel and putting a little "$" next to channels that have shops open to let shoppers know they have other shopping channels to choose from, for instance. One shopping channel that's too overcrowded to get onto is no good for the economy.


    But, that's just my two Gold...
    Sherri
  • MusicatMusicat
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,320
    Posts: 287
    Member
    edited June 21, 2019
    It's not the devs who ruin economy but mostly players (who refuse to use other channels than Ch1 for trading, who are just being lil'Scrooges, who tend to use side sources to get gold, who set higher and higher prices on market, etc.). That's a fact. If the overwhelming majority behaves in another way, economy will become better. I'm not saying it will be totally cured or that there are no problems in itself, nu-uh, it'll simply become better. I still agree with more than half of your people's statements here. However, if you have a complicated or even a not-so-good system, you still have the choice to use it in a better way or in a worse one. There are in-game charity funds where millionaires can simply put their stacks into, but I don't know how exactly that option works technically, and there are still possibilities of leakage to alts maybe, but well, it's already the to-exploit-or-not-to-exploit issue. I don't think that stacks of gold in the bank themselves may hurt economy, it's more about what happens to them outside the bank. Even such an outsider as myself was able to earn some millions and trade on another than Ch1 channel (without setting very high prices or selling ultra rare items, and without grinding stuff for sale, mostly by selling common things that may be useful), and I spend them on what I find reasonable at times (repairs, considering some upgraded and x10-repair-fee-enchanted weapons; single NX item I can't buy myself; even some vendor equips are expensive enough to drain my funds; exclude the top endgame gear, which I don't feel the need in yet), but not that often. Nevertheless, I also conclude that the in-game economy needs some changes.
    This comment may have looked messed.
    SherriPheonixferaArae
  • EmilieBerryEmilieBerry
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,720
    Posts: 62
    Member
    Dumbest idea ever, way to make a p2w game even worse.
  • EmilieBerryEmilieBerry
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,720
    Posts: 62
    Member
    So, I normally really don't get upset regarding game stuff, but this is pissing me off. For the last couple of events, Nexon has given out "Lost 100 million gold checks". Let me explain to you why this is a horrible idea. It destroys the in-game economy. It makes the gold worthless. Not only that, but because gold has become so ubiquitous via people using bots to stockpile and sell it, the price of everything has skyrocketed. People who sold gold to others (I've never bought or sold gold, but I've noticed it) sold it for 3m for $10 JUST 3 YEARS AGO. Now, gold has decreased in value by over 3x. This is crazy!

    Dear Nexon. Stop ruining the in-game economy. Stop giving away such ridiculous amounts of gold and create a way to get rid of such a ubiquitous amount of gold so that the economy can stabilize. These prices are part of the reason the game is dying: gold is too hard to get in large amounts unless you buy it. ( AND DO NOT TAKE THAT AS "Oh, lets just make gold easier to get then." I swear to god)

    where's moderators here giving feedback?
  • NemurikoAlexinaNemurikoAlexina
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,310
    Posts: 75
    Member
    There's no problem with the economy, it balances itself out. If the prices you have to pay for things goes up by 10x, it means the prices of things you could sell also goes up 10x. The only thing that remains constant is gold drops from monsters and mission rewards.

    It sounds like people are complaining that spamming shadow crystals is becoming less profitable, but that's not a problem with the economy. There's just no demand affiliated with the gold payout of missions. If you want to keep up with economic changes, you need to sell things. Things for which the demand is currently high, as demand changes over time. There's on single good or service in any economy that won't vary in price over time.

    In short, things aren't any harder to get than before, some people have just become worse at getting them.
    Musicat
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,660
    Posts: 1,704
    Member
    Oh no, did Nexon pull a Gaia Online? Didn't you learn that this was a bad idea in economics class?
    YangKoete
  • DanievictriaDanievictria
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,695
    Posts: 313
    Member
    There's no problem with the economy, it balances itself out. If the prices you have to pay for things goes up by 10x, it means the prices of things you could sell also goes up 10x. The only thing that remains constant is gold drops from monsters and mission rewards.

    It sounds like people are complaining that spamming shadow crystals is becoming less profitable, but that's not a problem with the economy. There's just no demand affiliated with the gold payout of missions. If you want to keep up with economic changes, you need to sell things. Things for which the demand is currently high, as demand changes over time. There's on single good or service in any economy that won't vary in price over time.

    In short, things aren't any harder to get than before, some people have just become worse at getting them.

    That's not it at all. The main complaint is actually about there being too much gold in the system, too many bots/gold sellers running around rampant, and not enough ways to get the excess gold out of the system, and that the "Lost 100 Million Gold Checks" look to make the problem worse.

    The problem, as I stated in my post above, mostly lies with the lack of effective gold circulation due to the players' tendency to use only one channel for commerce and the game's lack of non-intrusive and practically useful gold sinks.

    The idea that an economy will simply "balance itself out" is an assumption based on the idea that all participants in said economy are rational actors who base their economic behavior on cold, calculated logic, not emotion, habit, tradition, or the desire for instant gratification. It's an out-dated and mistaken idea that has been proven wrong time and again in both games and the real world. In reality, rules and systems have to be implemented that nudge people toward economic behaviors which keep the economy balanced and flowing properly. If you let the economy be a "Free Market Wild Wild West" environment, you get rampant inflation, stock market crashes, and bad actors exploiting the cracks in the system for their own benefit at the expense of the health of the economy as a whole. Although it would be nice if everyone ran on pure logic, the truth is that humans are not logical. If you want people to behave in a certain way or interact with a system in a certain way, you have to set things up in a way that incentivizes the desired behaviors and interactions and discourages the undesired ones in a way that feels seamless and natural to the participants. Plain and simple.
    MusicatBlissfulkillAisuSeraph
  • EraleaEralea
    Mabinogi Rep: 9,890
    Posts: 779
    Member
    There's an upside to this.

    Those cheaters who sell botted gold for real money get less income for their time, people who have previously bought gold will find their gold to now be worthless, and the Instant Prize gold is more likely to be redistributed amongst legit players.

    Honestly I don't see why legit players should even worry about the "real world" value of gold. This is a great way to punish those who do RMTs.
    Musicat
  • NemurikoAlexinaNemurikoAlexina
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,310
    Posts: 75
    Member
    edited June 21, 2019
    If I can consistently make large amounts of gold without NX/bots/etc, then there's no reason others can't as well.

    The price of each individual item doesn't actually matter, nor does the amount of gold in circulation. When you look at the situation objectively, all that matters is the amount of gold you can reliably earn compared to the cost of what you want to purchase.

    It's beneficial that people behave irrationally and that prices are unstable. You can make money much more easily this way. There have been Baltane x3 Crystals sold for 500k each, Green Noble Brioghs sold for 300k each, and various other items bought and sold with a difference in price per transaction of over 1000%.

    I've seen how some people do business, and so many people want to think like "The price of ________ is _______." That's why some people think the changes in the economy are a problem. It's true that a larger amount of gold in circulation will cause prices to rise, but that's not a bad thing. Let go of your ideas on what prices should be and just accept what they are. Exploit any opportunity you encounter to make a profit, and don't worry about how your actions affect the population as a whole. Anyone who puts enough thought into it will be able to profit. And if some people don't want to change, and don't want to adapt, they deserve every bit of financial difficulty they encounter.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 34,745
    Posts: 7,909
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    To tackle the problems of inflation, let's increase the interest rates!
    Darkpixie99
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,410
    Posts: 5,784
    Member
    In the real world, people have to buy food and pay their rent or mortgage; they MUST spend money. In games you don't have to. Over time, between more people joining a game or everyone getting more gold-and-stuff, the overall economy gets wealthier and wealthier; this can't be avoided. Inflation is inevitable. To be immune to inflation means you have to be wealthy. If you don't want to be someone who spends real world money to generate in-game wealth, which is the fastest way into the patrician class in these games, then you either have to grind it out or do buy low/sell high. Grinding is slower, while Buy Low/Sell High requires an iron stomach and a lot of research. Standing around in Tir Chonail or Dunbarton chatting, doesn't generate wealth; just sayin'.
    Kensamaofmari
  • SherriSherri
    Mabinogi Rep: 18,715
    Posts: 2,818
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    Well.. the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.. it's just sad it's happening in our 'fantasy world' as well of the real one. :/
    KensamaofmariMusicat
  • THICCthighssavelivesTHICCthighssavelives
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,855
    Posts: 790
    Member
    edited June 21, 2019
    Hey, that 'Millionaire Shopping Center' idea sounds great! Let's expand on that and think up stuff to sell there that newbs and poor players won't want.

    Repairs for Avalon Gate and funding for Baltane Squires. Fix up the old buildings around the squires area, give them top-notch training equipment and uniforms, make Shuan happy. Cost: 25m

    Rent out various buildings and halls around Erinn for social events. Rent a ballroom in Rath Castle, rent a villa in Belvast, rent a combat arena in Tailteann, rent a picnic area in Festia, rent a cozy room in the "nightlife" district of Emain, rent out the Soul Stream for parties. Cost: varies from 1m to 300m

    Donate to various cities and get a building named after you. Imagine visiting the Naruto559 Library in Dunbarton, or spending a day at Ponyloveruwu Land (formerly Festia). Cost: varies from 500m to 30b.
    SherriDarkpixie99PheonixferaShakayaPlatinaKokiAisuSeraph
  • EmilieBerryEmilieBerry
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,720
    Posts: 62
    Member
    There's no problem with the economy, it balances itself out. If the prices you have to pay for things goes up by 10x, it means the prices of things you could sell also goes up 10x. The only thing that remains constant is gold drops from monsters and mission rewards.

    It sounds like people are complaining that spamming shadow crystals is becoming less profitable, but that's not a problem with the economy. There's just no demand affiliated with the gold payout of missions. If you want to keep up with economic changes, you need to sell things. Things for which the demand is currently high, as demand changes over time. There's on single good or service in any economy that won't vary in price over time.

    In short, things aren't any harder to get than before, some people have just become worse at getting them.

    do you understand economics?
    Danievictria
  • EmilieBerryEmilieBerry
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,720
    Posts: 62
    Member
    There's no problem with the economy, it balances itself out. If the prices you have to pay for things goes up by 10x, it means the prices of things you could sell also goes up 10x. The only thing that remains constant is gold drops from monsters and mission rewards.

    It sounds like people are complaining that spamming shadow crystals is becoming less profitable, but that's not a problem with the economy. There's just no demand affiliated with the gold payout of missions. If you want to keep up with economic changes, you need to sell things. Things for which the demand is currently high, as demand changes over time. There's on single good or service in any economy that won't vary in price over time.

    In short, things aren't any harder to get than before, some people have just become worse at getting them.

    That's literally the reason why it IS bad...
    Shadow Missions should continue being an option to receive gold.
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,660
    Posts: 1,704
    Member
    edited June 21, 2019
    Hey, that 'Millionaire Shopping Center' idea sounds great! Let's expand on that and think up stuff to sell there that newbs and poor players won't want.

    Repairs for Avalon Gate and funding for Baltane Squires. Fix up the old buildings around the squires area, give them top-notch training equipment and uniforms, make Shuan happy. Cost: 25m

    Rent out various buildings and halls around Erinn for social events. Rent a ballroom in Rath Castle, rent a villa in Belvast, rent a combat arena in Tailteann, rent a picnic area in Festia, rent a cozy room in the "nightlife" district of Emain, rent out the Soul Stream for parties. Cost: varies from 1m to 300m

    Donate to various cities and get a building named after you. Imagine visiting the Naruto559 Library in Dunbarton, or spending a day at Ponyloveruwu Land (formerly Festia). Cost: varies from 500m to 30b.

    That funding Baltane thing sounds more like an elaborate Mabinogi Squire Hall dating simulator kind of thing.
    Build the school, dress up the squires, and-
    Wait, are we sure this isn't FEH 3 Houses?
    I'm pretty sure there was an app for the squire system in KR, and it apparently did not do so well.
  • PanPan
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,165
    Posts: 421
    Member
    tN9jcw8.png

    No matter how much information we (as the players) throw at Nexon, they will disregard it even though it's all there in front of them.

    SherriKensamaofmariPlatinaKoki
  • GretaGreta
    Mabinogi Rep: 51,805
    Posts: 6,975
    Member
    edited June 21, 2019
    Pan wrote: »
    tN9jcw8.png

    No matter how much information we (as the players) throw at Nexon, they will disregard it even though it's all there in front of them.

    OOF. Literally in their Discord server.

    They could deal with these gold sellers/buyers easily, but i guess they know there's no other way to make that quick $$$ if players won't get that taste of some NX first.
    PanSherriKensamaofmariDanievictriaPlatinaKoki
  • SherriSherri
    Mabinogi Rep: 18,715
    Posts: 2,818
    Member
    Greta wrote: »
    Pan wrote: »
    tN9jcw8.png

    No matter how much information we (as the players) throw at Nexon, they will disregard it even though it's all there in front of them.

    OOF. Literally in their Discord server.

    They could deal with these gold sellers/buyers easily, but i guess they know there's no other way to make that quick $$$ if players won't get that taste of some NX first.

    Dang really? I guess they don't care about their game anymore as long as they get their gacha money LOL