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Vet Dungeon

MichealllaMicheallla
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in Feedback and Suggestions
I would suggest Dungeons in general be made to party of 1 - 8. Its easier to run the dungeons. Its more fun to run with more friends and players.
HabimaruAmarazAlshian

Comments

  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
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    YES. BRING BACK 8 PLAYER DUNGEONS PLAZ.
    HabimaruAlshian
  • GretaGreta
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    YES. AND VETERAN DUNGEONS ARE CRAP!
    Shiro42Alshian
  • HelsaHelsa
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    Greta wrote: »
    YES. AND VETERAN DUNGEONS ARE CRAP!

    What if veteran dungeons allowed 8?
    Alshian
  • GretaGreta
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    Helsa wrote: »
    Greta wrote: »
    YES. AND VETERAN DUNGEONS ARE CRAP!

    What if veteran dungeons allowed 8?

    Then maybe it would be slightly better.
    Alshian
  • HelsaHelsa
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    Greta wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    Greta wrote: »
    YES. AND VETERAN DUNGEONS ARE CRAP!

    What if veteran dungeons allowed 8?

    Then maybe it would be slightly better.

    I've never done a veteran dungeon but my understand is that they are very difficult mostly because they take away your agro control tool box and the monsters one-shot you. Back when people thought commerce was hard, just having one person come along with you made all the difference. Maybe with these dungeons going from 4 to 8 might have the same effect.
  • GretaGreta
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    Monsters didn't one shot me (at least in Rabbie), but they have extremely buffed HP and protection that it's not even funny. Killing 3 rats for 2 minutes, so dumb. What's the point of these dungeons, everything is the same, but made more tedious and durability/time consuming.
  • HelsaHelsa
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    edited May 9, 2020
    Greta wrote: »
    Monsters didn't one shot me (at least in Rabbie), but they have extremely buffed HP and protection that it's not even funny. Killing 3 rats for 2 minutes, so dumb. What's the point of these dungeons, everything is the same, but made more tedious and durability/time consuming.

    Can you do these things World of Warcraft style with Tanks, Damage Dealers, and Healer/Buffers, and so on, all working as a team? Does that happen here, or is Mabinogi just a bunch of Leroy Jenkins?
  • SherriSherri
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    Agreed, bring back 8 player dungeons.
    Making it 4 only was a huuuge mistake.
  • Shiro42Shiro42
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    Helsa wrote: »
    Greta wrote: »
    Helsa wrote: »
    Greta wrote: »
    YES. AND VETERAN DUNGEONS ARE CRAP!

    What if veteran dungeons allowed 8?

    Then maybe it would be slightly better.

    I've never done a veteran dungeon but my understand is that they are very difficult mostly because they take away your agro control tool box and the monsters one-shot you. Back when people thought commerce was hard, just having one person come along with you made all the difference. Maybe with these dungeons going from 4 to 8 might have the same effect.

    Nah, the only "difficulty" is that the monsters all have 50k+ health and increased defenses. The increased attack power can be an issue for lower-mid level players, or in the boss room, but the enemies are all the normal mode monsters from the corresponding dungeon. So aggro control is super simple. Having more players would be nice in that the monsters would go down faster.
  • TimefallTimefall
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    It's a nice thought at first maybe, but then you realize cheaters will be bringing 7 alts instead of 3, get double the rewards they're currently getting at no additional effort, and prices of drops will fall further, making dungeons even LESS rewarding for honest players. o.o
  • HelsaHelsa
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    Timefall wrote: »
    It's a nice thought at first maybe, but then you realize cheaters will be bringing 7 alts instead of 3, get double the rewards they're currently getting at no additional effort, and prices of drops will fall further, making dungeons even LESS rewarding for honest players. o.o

    Alts are not illegal though, that's why we can make them. One violation of the rules here is for those folks using the mod which allows multiple clients running on the same computer. If the mod alters the client or any Nexon provided files, then it's a no-no. But if you have more than one computer, you can have multiple characters logged in simultaneously, and not break the rules. Another possible breaking of the rules here would be running some kind of mod that turns your alts into bots. Since having characters standing around in a hard dungeon probably won't cut the mustard, but it seems to me, that if you can find a macro-maker that does not edit the client or any Nexon files, and twiddles how the operating system works instead, then that can't be against EULA. It'd be like if you made a physical robot to actually play a character for you, but instead here you're just doing it in software alone. Given a choice between more players being able to do the dungeon, so that they can get the items to use for themselves, versus a continued "happy time" for the few in the oligopoly getting the items to sell, the socialist in me says "go with the common people".
  • HabimaruHabimaru
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    Actually, unless it was updated since the last time I had it read, the terms don't permit macro/automation/botting in terms of actions being performed through any means whether software or external, regardless of whether you are away from or even at your computer, although there wouldn't really be a way for them to detect any means of external literal Artificial-Intelligence cyborg/android-style robots that you may create in order to physically sit down at one of your extra computers playing your other characters for you, and by then we're then getting into some rather grey areas in the sense that if you have a humanoid-robot doing its duties as your maid/butler at your home, including playing other characters with you on your other computers, then they would really be considered another PERSON and not some sort of kiddie-script/botter/macro/etc. And by that point it gets rather silly to be «legislating» what people can do with so-called alt-characters if they're dedicated and sophisticated enough to come up with such an incredible form of Artificial-Intelligence (especially if it reached a stage of the humanoid-robot being self-learning such that it was self-aware and thus considered a sentient entity).

    Regarding Timefall's reference of price-dropping... I am sorry but that is simply the way of the world and the «business-environment» the way that the world in general is structured (whether on-line or off-line) happens to be a «competitive» one in the sense that «who-ever exercises the most-productive means of product-acquisition/creation» will also be the one who is able to provide the most «competitive» prices and thus dominate the «market» (a sort-of-monopoly). One of the key differences is whether that «monopoly» came about through political/legislative means or through competitive means... when it is competitive the prices will fall and even «new players» will be able to afford what was otherwise only historically available to the «elite» classes where-as if that «monopoly» is forced through regulation/control/legislation then it is an artificial «monopoly» which sets the prices so sky-high that only a select few people can even afford even a basic version of that service/good (and it is the artificial-monopoly in the off-line world which is actually the «dishonest» version of a monopoly; don't even get me started on «Wal-Mart» being an «artificial-monopoly» as you can already find plenty of documentaries detailing this if you're willing to exercise enough critical-thinking skills as to where & how to find said documentaries).

    ...like it or not, they whom are often referred to as the «whales» for any corporate-published title are often the ones who «hold the pocket-book» for whether your ability to even have such a things as a «dungeon» you can enjoy for free even exists and some of them may have lots of computers.

    I do find it difficult to imagine that anybody would be silly enough to run more than one instance of Mabinogi on the same computer given how resource-intensive the client/engine is and the fact that laptops (or extra desk-tops if someone has enough space in/at their home/office) are actually quite cheap/inexpensive these days to the point where even someone working a minimum-wage J.O.B. (Just Over Broke), provided that they are able to exercise enough financial-discipline to not incur lots of unessential-expenses (such as cooking healthy food at home instead of always eating out, not subscribing to every magazine-offer that comes into their mail-box, etc) & know how to resist applying for and using credit-cards and other such financial-scams, should be able to easily afford an extra laptop or two or possibly even more within a year or less of working... decent laptops at that, too.
    Until which time we live in a world where Nikola Tesla's «free-energy» inventions are released into the public where we no longer have to slave away and spend 70% or more of our forced labour each month just to be able to put food on our plates and keep a roof over our heads and must remain part of some «rat-race» via on-going corporate-government-financial-bankster-slavery and not stray from it for more than two weeks or end up homeless and/or on-line games are designed simply for the pure-enjoyment of it rather than based on a «wealth-accumulation» mind-set we're just going to have to expect some form of «capitalism» at work... capitalism itself would actually be great IF the «financial-system» itself was honest. Unfortunately...
    «It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.» -Henry Ford

    «I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.»
    Thomas Jefferson, (Attributed) 3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)»

    Lots more on this if you listen to the Victoria Grant Speech and listen to All Wars Are Bankers Wars Documentary
    Helsa wrote: »
    Timefall wrote: »
    It's a nice thought at first maybe, but then you realize cheaters will be bringing 7 alts instead of 3, get double the rewards they're currently getting at no additional effort, and prices of drops will fall further, making dungeons even LESS rewarding for honest players. o.o

    Alts are not illegal though, that's why we can make them. One violation of the rules here is for those folks using the mod which allows multiple clients running on the same computer. If the mod alters the client or any Nexon provided files, then it's a no-no. But if you have more than one computer, you can have multiple characters logged in simultaneously, and not break the rules. Another possible breaking of the rules here would be running some kind of mod that turns your alts into bots. Since having characters standing around in a hard dungeon probably won't cut the mustard, but it seems to me, that if you can find a macro-maker that does not edit the client or any Nexon files, and twiddles how the operating system works instead, then that can't be against EULA. It'd be like if you made a physical robot to actually play a character for you, but instead here you're just doing it in software alone. Given a choice between more players being able to do the dungeon, so that they can get the items to use for themselves, versus a continued "happy time" for the few in the oligopoly getting the items to sell, the socialist in me says "go with the common people".
    A lot of what exists in the world of Mabinogi are also really more so along the lines of wants rather than needs anyway. One thing I consider to be more akin to a «need» (for most people) would be inventory/bag-space. Also, players often set the prices, and there seem to be different camps every now and then complaining about one «side» or another, such as someone saying that there's «too much inflation» where-as when I take an objective-look at the «market-prices» and «auction-house-listings» to me some of those «sky-high» prices come across to me as naught more than just being greedy unless it is a truly rare item that took lots of work/effort to obtain. Then over here in this thread we come across «dropping the prices» complaint which seems to be the opposite-end of the spectrum for which I had already responded in above-paragraphs. Did you know that some people literally spend hundreds (or even thousands) of $$$ on NX for things like Black-Dragon Summon-Scrolls and other such things...? Even I go to those Black Dragon-Raid summons (sometimes) when a whale is generous enough to do a 100x Black-Dragon summon-marathon, and of course it's going to cause prices for certain items to fall, and that's actually beneficial to an Elf like myself who can fore-see that I will eventually be able to actually afford my own Bhafel-Hunter & Bhafel-Huntress some day, sooner, much sooner, than if there weren't people who would spend the time/effort/NX in a «spam-run» of what-ever/which-ever dungeon/mission/etc., puts essential products into the market.

    Nobody even bothers to run Veteran-Dungeons any more as it is and the «reward» is considered by many to be «crap» anyway given the amount of time/effort/resources required... such to the point that people literally wait until someone has a Hall of Gems Alban-Stone and Heroic-Difficulty Alban-Stone where they can run a group on SS-Tier Difficulty. Mean-while, our «time» IS «better spent» spamming Sidhe-Runs, AAHM, Alban-Grounds, Baltane-Elites, Tech-Missions, etc., anything that is essentially NOT Veteran-Dungeon. IF, how-ever, Veteran-Dungeons were made more appealing, more of us would be able to sooner max out our Spirit-Weapon Levels & complete some of our Spirit-Weapon Quests sooner so that we could also sooner join those «end-gamers» in their runs of Phantasm-Dungeon, Tech-Elites, etc., etc. Although there are more and more people joining my contact-list who seem to have the capability/strength to even «solo» dungeons like Rabbie-Phantasm, the vast majority of the «friends» I have made on my contact-list are still amongst the more «newer» (or perhaps «casual» ?) categories where we still need super-strong people who can «carry» us through Alban-Heroic (SS-Tier), Phantasm-Mirror/Regular, etc., even though we can handle AAHM on our own.
    skpkion
  • HelsaHelsa
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    Habimaru wrote: »
    Actually, unless it was updated since the last time I had it read, the terms don't permit macro/automation/botting in terms of actions being performed through any means whether software or external, regardless of whether you are away from or even at your computer

    Technically, that would mean that asking your little brother to log you out, while you go pee would be a violation of EULA. Hypothetically speaking, things that are written in a EULA, may or may not be capable of being legally demanded. But, of course, determining what can or can't be would require litigation.

    Editing their files being a violation is understandable, editing copies of their files, held only in memory, would also be understandable as a violation under a copyright based argument. Twiddling only with pre-install, non-Nexon property is none of their business. That having been said, it would allow their technical support team to refuse to help you, with any issues you ask of them, at least until said changes are removed.
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
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    8 player would definitely make spam farming them a little more desirable. I mean 15-20 for nothing is very discouraging.
  • TimefallTimefall
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    It seems most people don't realize this, but "cheating", which means to step outside the boundaries of the game, is not the same as "breaking the ToS". Even if the Terms of Service technically allows some things, those things (such as using 4 computers to gain 4x the dungeon chests) are still cheating. I'm aware that the majority of mabi's population cheats in some way or another, and those people don't like to be called out, but convincing themselves it's okay because the ToS allows it doesn't change anything. Everything they have and everything they've accomplished in Mabi is invalid.

    I know that no action will ever be taken against them, and content will never be changed to prevent any of this. I'm not suggesting they be punished in any way. Let them pretend they're good at something. But, changing existing content to make things easier for them while harming others isn't a good option.
  • HelsaHelsa
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    edited May 11, 2020
    That makes the definition of "cheating" a subjective one, rather than objective; in other words: "That's just your opinion, man". So, let's do the academic exercise of examining "cheating" as a subjective definition. If what is "cheating" is a matter of opinion, this would imply different degrees of "cheating", since different people will have different opinions on the matter; where one falls, on that scale, is where their subjective definition is. So, what kind of degrees of "cheating" can we have?

    The lowest degree would be absolutely no cheating at all. That is, one follows the rules, remaining with-in their boundaries, while also following "the spirit of the rules". The spirit of the rules, though, is subjective and hence why we have differing degrees to what, subjectively, is "cheating".

    The next form of "cheating" is that we have one following the official stated rules but interpreting their spirit differently than others. Typically this manifests itself in the idea of there being nothing in the rules about the action taken, and hence the action is not "cheating". At the heart of it, this is making use of loop-holes in the rules. The primary example of this is the 1983 America's Cup Challenge where Australia used a design that was not prohibited by the rules, yet was not one traditionally seen before. This is the level of "cheating" that has the most contention between people. I see this behavior as beneficial because it introduces self correction into the rule system. One finds a loop-hole, one exploits the loop-hole, the loop-hole is exposed, and the rules are tightened. The use of the loop-hole, until the rules are tightened, is the reward to the discoverer for their efforts in uncovering it, thus creating incentive to look for loop-holes and help improving the rule set.

    The next level of "cheating" makes use of gaps in enforcement. It involves not just disobeying the specific rules themselves, but breaking them only in a way that the enforcers of the rules are unable to identify the perpetrator. Examples of this would be driving through a red light at 4 o'clock in the morning, speeding where one believes there are no traffic cops, and parking in a no-parking or wheelchair spot to quickly run in to buy cigarettes. Everyone would agree that this is cheating, yet everyone has probably cheated on this level.

    The final level is breaking the specific rules, irregardless of whether one would get caught.

    If we define cheating objectively, then it is behavior not allowed by the rules. This then corresponds to what the second level is, and so is why lawyers exist. Concepts of "the spirit or the rules" is where judges come in, but the judge has to show clearly why, based on what was argued rather than their own feelings, "the spirit of the rules" are in fact directly and unambiguously implied in the existing rule-set, and hence are not actually a nebulous concept like "the spirit of the rules".
  • HabimaruHabimaru
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    The typical meaning/definition used by Nexon in regards to what they consider «cheating» can generally be worded by their own wording which states «unfair competitive advantage over others» but as (H)Elsa mentioned there is also a «spirit» of the «rules» such that people who have a group of friends who run content regularly together would have an «unfair competitive advantage» over the «non-social introvert» who has been doing all of their content «Solonogi» version. A group of buddies who Production-Party with each other regularly would have a so-called «unfair competitive advantage» in Life-Skills over the «Solonogi-er» who may not always get on-line when there is an available full-group production-party (and sometimes I still wonder why people use only the 8-man version of parties for production-parties rather than making use of the 16-man version).

    Saying that everyone is/has or has been «cheating» is a «sweeping general statement» and there are logical-fallacies involved with such an assumption given that the population and the world of Mabinogi is not designed to be an «adversary system» world. IF it were an «adversary system» world then I could agree with you 100% that anything outside of the «letter» of the «rules» would be «cheating» but the world of Mabinogi is co-operative rather than adversarial-competitive and is quite a significant reason as to why most people will rarely encounter «toxic» community members. People are here to have fun, experience freedom (evidenced by the poll of one of my recent threads), and at least try to enjoy themselves without having to harassed by some «Gestapo-style» sticklers since the player-base for the most part does their thing and go about doing so without causing injury/harm/suffering/damage to others' persons/properties/etc.

    Nobody is stopping you from, ahem, «getting a job» and purchasing an extra laptop, such that you might use it to help someone drop into Provocation. Likewise, nobody is forcing you to be jobless, such that you are prevented from having the «funds» to «reforge» your gear into one of where you are suddenly «competitive» and have an advantage over the F2P-population. Regarding the Legalese-system touched upon by Helsa... whether you like it or not, the ones who have the most amount of $$$ are the ones who can «buy out the judges» and they are the ones who make the «rules» that everyone else has to follow. If the «rule» says that you have to cough up 100% of your pay-cheque every month to the governor so that he and his buddies can wine & dine & buy women off your brow & sweat & blood or be put in jail, then you'd better pay them up, boy, otherwise you're «cheating» and deserve to be put in jail for not «following the rules» that were written (kappa; this is a moment of facetiousness, solely put here to illustrate a point, and that point is to reference that there is such a thing as the word «reasonable» which ultimately has the highest «jurisdiction» when it comes to an honest world).
    Timefall wrote: »
    It seems most people don't realize this, but "cheating", which means to step outside the boundaries of the game, is not the same as "breaking the ToS". Even if the Terms of Service technically allows some things, those things (such as using 4 computers to gain 4x the dungeon chests) are still cheating. I'm aware that the majority of mabi's population cheats in some way or another, and those people don't like to be called out, but convincing themselves it's okay because the ToS allows it doesn't change anything. Everything they have and everything they've accomplished in Mabi is invalid.

    I know that no action will ever be taken against them, and content will never be changed to prevent any of this. I'm not suggesting they be punished in any way. Let them pretend they're good at something. But, changing existing content to make things easier for them while harming others isn't a good option.
  • HelsaHelsa
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    Habimaru wrote: »
    (H)Elsa

    I was Helsa, long before "she" came along, and you know that. Harumph!
  • TimefallTimefall
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    It's not subjective in the least. As a metaphor, if you acquire a save file for a console game that has already cleared it, and run around acting as though "you beat the game" because the save file you own has defeated the final boss, you clearly haven't achieved what you're claiming you have. There's no rule anywhere saying you can't do that. Nobody is going to punish you for it. Some may say it counts. Whether you beat it or cheated, you still ended up with the same result: a game-clear save file. Yet, when I look at such a person, I haven't the slightest bit of respect for them, because I know they didn't actually do anything.

    It's the same in Mabinogi. It's not against the rules and there's no consequences to it, but it leaves your accomplishments hollow. I have no respect for the in-game things people have accomplished by stepping outside the game's boundary. I think of them as newbie players, level 1 with no equips, because the things they have weren't earned. It reminds me of those cardboard houses Nexon gave everyone one year.
  • HelsaHelsa
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    Oh it is subjective. The fact that we disagree proves it so. As you say of your example, it is not technically cheating, but cheating and making false claims are two different animals. Someone doing the above but not bragging about it and telling folks they loaded someone else's save game would not be cheating then by your definition.