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Potion Making & Potions Obsoletion

Hisame621Hisame621
Mabinogi Rep: 1,250
Posts: 22
Member
edited September 21, 2021 in Feedback and Suggestions
Potion Making Obsoletion has been real in my experience over the last 11 Years of playing Mabinogi. I have a few things to propose in order to make Potion Making feel less obsolete but before that, I would like to outline a few things.
In the beginning of the game, rebirths were available after 3 weeks and reaching level 30 was not that easy for most people. Many players recommended rebirthing from level 30 to level 50 as long as it was possible to reach that level. At the time new players HP was very low, perhaps between 80-200 (probably less). At the time an HP 10 Potion could help recover a fair percentage of HP. HP 30 and HP 50 were very good and worth picking up from the ground and keeping in the inventory. Times have changed and HP has increased drastically even for the newest players. With Blaanid's quests, new players can easily reach level 200 and get extra HP from just their level. With renown, players can get additional HP. These are things that did not exist, and therefore make both Potions sold in healer NPC shops and ones obtained from Potion Making become seemingly obsolete.

Furthermore, there have been many more additions to the game that should be placed into perspective and taken into consideration.
First lets mention the easiest ways for players to recover HP by order of easiest and or most immediate to attain.
1. Dorcha Explosion. I actually recommended a friend who was new to the game, to get Chain skills, only for the sake of getting Dorcha Explosions to recover quickly and easily (since any sort of combat, not related to chain will fill the gauge)
2. Glyphs. A good Lvl 10 Glyph can restore 100 HP Per Second.
3. Transformation. Although it won't necessarily heal 100% it certainly can help restore most of it plus add defensive stats and increase HP.
4. Enduring Melody. This is the slowest method almost not worth mentioning but if used in combination with everything on the list, it can speed things up a bit.
5. DemiGod. Although Slow, it gets the job done.
6. Life Drain. Practical for alchemy users.
7. Shield of Trust: Healing Hands. Another way of healing if one has given enough time to rank Crusader level and skills.
8. Vital Surge. While this is not easily available to new players, as long as they reach G22 they can fairly be rewarded a 10 minute cooldown skill to restore all their HP immediately while also momentarily increasing their HP.
9. Zone of Renewal. Another skill earned after G23.
10. Summoning Nimbus / Other Pets. This is not a free method but worth mentioning.

Next let's consider All of these things can be used in conjunction with each other.
And here are the reasons why I personally rarely USE potions:
- I make use of everything in the list.
- My combat style tries to avoid getting hit rather than tanking (I am an elf).
- Most of my skills can be used to keep enemies at bay ( I mention these because I think most people do the same )
Next, the reasons I have almost never used Potion Making over the past 11+ years that I have played Mabinogi:
- Events often give away great amounts of potions that heal more than what can be attained from NPC or what can be made using Potion Making
- I would often store the superior potions from events and didnt need to make any for myself.
- The method and interface does not feel practical and requires a lot of time. For example, making HP 300 and higher potions when inventory space is scarse (as it usually is for me), I have to not only make space for Empty Bottles, but fill them with water one by one. Considering the 10 Slots you can use for Potion Making minus 2 for Herb and HP 100 Potions, only 8x HP 300 Potions can made at a time. This makes things feel tedious.

In all my time playing Mabinogi, I have felt a need to make potions for survival maybe twice at the most. The first time was when I was curious to see how long they would last me, then many years after when I ran out of event potions, I felt I needed some to fight against a boss from G22 or G23. Now that I have Techs and Life Drain I almost dont need potions at all and have even kept many potions stored in my inventory from events for more than 4 years.

When I was new to the game about 11 Years ago, I remember being fascinated by being able to make potions, as well as Poison Bottles. Poisoning an Enemy has always been something I liked in games I even bought a Snake pet for this purpose, only to realize most monsters (at least important ones) are either immune to it, or hardly affected by it. Being poisoned was another thing I liked about games, since they add a sense of thrill and risk. After reaching Rank 4 Potion Making, I stopped ranking the skill, it seemed worthless (although this was long ago before Dan 1-3 Patches). Nothing I would be able to make with Potion Making would add more fun to the game for me, nor did i need it to help me survive a situation.

The giving out pots during events is still an ongoing thing, it has become like a tradition in the game so I don't expect to need potions in the future either as I have many stored.

My current HP is 2116 at level 126 including +530 from Edern Renown. Compared to what I have heard from Human characters, it is not that much, and since the majority of Mabinogi population are Human, I am trying to speak for the majority and saying, most people may have more than 2000 HP.

Putting into perspective the time it takes to obtain Skills, Transformation, Techs, Glyphs, Dorcha Explosion, etc and the time it takes to recover HP, or simply wait for the next potion-giving event, compared to the time it takes to MAKE potions will that restore a decent amount of HP, hopefully make clear why I outline these things. I believe these things are important when deciding whether or not the Potions are useful and worth taking the time to make. In my opinion it is hardly worth it to make potions. Either it takes too long or its too tedious and impractical to make them, or they aren't required in many scenarios against other methods of HP recovery, plus add to this that a potion-giving event may come and one can stock up on potions for future use.

That said, I believe Something must change and I propose many different approaches to be as flexible as possible.

First off, I think any approach should include making things easier, such as adding a new item to the game called "Empty Bottle 10x"(Meaning 10x the Volume of normal Empty Bottles), able to fill up to x10 with 1 or 2 trips down the Water Well (if you must insist on not making things *too easy*)
and this would be the most I ask for if nothing else I propose here can be done.

(edit, I previously listed 2% and 3% pots but that was a terrible example. The number is not whats important but the concept of %)
Approach 1. Allow making Potions that heal modest percentages of HP (example percentages: 5%, 10%, 15%, 20%) If necessary make them require more herbs, or some catalyst that wont require too much time to gather.
Approach 2. Allow making most or ALL of the potions from https://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Potions_List this page in the sections "Buff, Combat EXP, Tendering, Movement. These potions may be more worth the time making, if not others.
Approach 3. Create scenarios either in new Shadow Missions, New Special Dungeons, or in new Generations that rely slightly more on potions to survive or complete. Or look forward to my next Post regarding a new Survival Area for scenarios like these.


Kagenokami
  1. Which approach would you choose, (or add one in the comments)6 votes
    1. Approach 1
       0% (0 votes)
    2. Approach 2
       33% (2 votes)
    3. Approach 3
       0% (0 votes)
    4. All 3 Approaches
       67% (4 votes)

Comments

  • BentobunniiBentobunnii
    Mabinogi Rep: 525
    Posts: 3
    Member
    I'm very interested in what the 3rd option would entail?
    Hisame621
  • StormbeastStormbeast
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,290
    Posts: 162
    Member
    edited September 18, 2021
    Just wanted to point a few things out. NOTE: I don't disagree that potion making is tedious.

    1) Summoning pets to heal actually is a free option. part of the dungeon guide gives a nimbus pet just for clearing Alby Normal, and you can also get another healing pet for doing the blaanid quests.
    Edit: although not cheap, players can get the better healing pets (catsidhe and whale) on the AH for gold without buying NX

    2) Grandmaster Apothecary effect actually increases your production without using extra mats (2-5 per craft). So 8 HP 300 crafts that succeed will net you 16-40 pots (usually closer to 20ish)

    3) the issue with empty bottle X10 would be everything else that empty bottles can be used for. It's impractical and is actually the least likely option for them to take.

    With all that being said, I'm sure most players would be happy to just let us craft comprehensive 500 pots. Add 1 new recipe : 1 HP 300, 1 Stam 300, 1 MP 300, and extras (pure white dust, refined catalysts, ect.) and suddenly Potion making becomes much more useful. Adding it as a Dan recipe will even make it more likely to invest in.
    Hisame621
  • HelsaHelsa
    Mabinogi Rep: 22,435
    Posts: 5,281
    Member
    It'd be nice to see a broader effects range even if most are duplicates of other mechanics in the game. Like: invisibility potions, transformation potions, flying potions, and so on. The idea would be it could provide some mid to late game capabilities, if in a limited capacity, to earlier game characters, sort of how Mana Crystalization can give newer characters a taste of mid-level magic.
  • RyusakenRyusaken
    Mabinogi Rep: 610
    Posts: 2
    Member
    edited September 21, 2021
    Leme start by saying i have been playing this game the same or longer than hisame so im very knowledgeable about the games up and downs when it comes to potions making and their effects and i also hold Dan 3 potion making. from my experience making and selling potions specialy the Re versions up to the comprehensive 1000 potions in stacks which no1 bother to make.
    I can agree with hisame in a few areas and disagree in others base on my knowledge about potions. for example:he wants to allow making of hp % potions like 2%,3%.5%,10%,20% while its a good take on trying to scale potion for end game players i feel we can't start so low in % ofter all who wanna spam 2%,3%,5,%10% or even 20% hp potions in the middle of a fight just to end poisoned with poison sickness. not only will you need alot of these potions but it will take alot of time for you to heal back up to max if you're in the middle of combat while fighting very strong enemis. and while yes potion making seems absolete to many right now to the end game players who don't even need them it just reafirm to them that they have come a long way and have become so much stronger so that they don't need to depend on potions on common content atless.with all the new skills avaible like tech,glyph etc etc for end game players atless potions won't be needed as much compared to new players.
    My other reason for saying % potions aren't really needed is bcos mabinogi is one of the few games that allow unlimited ammounts of potion carring and there is also no limit to how many potions you can use in a fight and there is also no cooldown. nexon balanced this with potion sickness otherwise potions would just break the game. and while yes alot of end game players like myself who sits around 3k ish hp and more at lvl 200 and around 4k with pet link wich i'll get to in a min withow even mentioning palading or darknight etc etc.
    we could take these % potions and compared their effects when used on a 3k hp character next to static hp healing potions and you'll understand why its not necessary to make % potions. so lets do some quick math. 2% hp potion would heal a 100 hp character 2 hp. worse than a 10 hp potion you can find anywhere on shops or the floor am i right? not that good obviously. 2% of 1000 would be 20hp. still awfull. 2% of 3000 hp 60hp,basicaly close to a 50 hp potion which means you could already consider a 50 hp potion to be around 2% heal potion for most ppl with 2.5k,3k hp.
    now i won't get into detail with the lower % hp potions cos i'll be here all day otherwise but lets take 20% into consideration for a sec. 20% of 1000 is 200 hp which is almost a 300 hp potion. 20% of 2000 hp is 400 hp which is better than 300 hp but we can make 500 hp potions. and finaly 20% of 3k hp would be 600 hp which is 20% better than a 500 hp potion but in the end no that much of a dif specialy when you can spam hp potions to heal and whatnot. another thing to consider is that for end game player we already do have a % potion in the form of full restore. which heals everything to max but ofcourse these aren't craftable but plenty given through events and the like and can be bought with nx on the store.
    all of these points will make alot of ppl think...yeh potion making is kind of absolete and you wouldn't be wrong to assume that once you're an end game player. there are also other reason i haven't mentioned as to why i belive potion making isin't absolete as much as its outdated in terms of assessibility and that being the materials needed for the higher lvl potions requiering clover. leme tell ya...im not 100% against the rarer potions needing rare materials but the problem here is how you get the materials in the first place. clover is one of them materials that are so Rare to obtain the normal way that its not worth doing so in the first place. Clovers can be obtained from patches of flowers in places like emain macha and leme tell ya....i never seen it drop even once on my gathers for grass or flowers,thats how rare it is.another is Clover Gnu and Clover pig,kinda still hard to get through these. the other metod to obtain the clovers is through the synthesis of 4 Base herbs,1 cheap Leather Strap and 1 braid. braids take alot of time to make since you gota gather alot of cobwebs and sheep fur to make thin and thick thread balls. while the synthesis part ain't that hard to beggin with the problem is that it to be done one at a time,you gota shift click the base herb and imput 4 put it on the slot then go and put in the other 2 materials and you gota do this for every single clover. if i could make bundles of clovers it wouldn't be that much of an issue.my sugestion for this part is to ether give us a way to gather clovers more reliably like adding clover patches to open fields,dungeons and allow hs clover patches or change the clover requierement to white herbs and add them to hs also,not only will this make it easier and less stressfull to get the materials but it will also fall within the herb category.
    another issue of making potions like hisame mentioned is the gathering of water. not only is it time consuming and take alot of space,Also when you try gathering water it fails sometimes wasting even more time. still don't understand how missing is a part of gathering water,but it is what it is.
    my sugestion for this issue would be for water to be made into a consumable ingredient item that can stack rather than an equipable refilable bottle,this way you can buy them at the stores that sell food and potion making stores and ik what most ppl will say"but Ryu what about other stuff that needs an empty bottle to gather stuff like milk from cows,the honey water from the pet area etc etc" we can have a diferent equipable empty bottle for those or we remove water bottles needed to make the potions and just let the potions requiere the base potion instead which in my opinion should have been all we needed to begin with. cos think about it,the base potion is a container rite? i think you all understand how that goes.
    now on to the Divine link relevance to the potion issue,i speak for myself when i say i got divine link rank 1 and all its subskills rank 1 aswell and a pet with lvl 200 + finny effects,with all of this not that everything is trully needed to achive this much tankiness with a pet but most stuff hit my pet for 1 damage and since my pet won't die and take all the aggro from enemis i never take a hit and if i do take a hit which is very rare its always 1 damage so yeh i don't need potions in most hard+ missions bcos of the divine link and being tanky but the issue comes into play for the very relevant content where you can't use your pet like Rabbie Phantasm and all the enemis aggro you and stunlock you in a corner or somethingand if you got low def and pro they hit you so hard that you basicaly feel you're back to being a newby lvl 1 player fighting a horse of goblins a la gobling slayer. missions like raids and tech duin elites etc etc will always feel hard unless you're a player whaling for reforges and equipment. what im saying is that if you do content you're not prepared for,potions will be the less of your problems. specialy with mechanics that can 1hit you in the first place. nowadays ppl wanna try to solo everything which in my opinion is dumb when mabi is supoce to be a social co-op game.
    i don't wanna spoil anything but there will be an update soon that will make potions more accessible to every player mostly end game players withow bothering with potion making. so yes potion making will become even more absolete in the future if you see it that way.
    there is another thing in here that wasen't pointed out or mentioned but i think the true issue here is The cleric talent and its healing abilities not scaling with players magic or target max hp. Hisames Idea about % should be insted be applied to The healing talent healing skills base on rank and my sugestion for that would be to increase static lvl of the 2 healing skills by the magic power of the player and also add a side healing % effect based on the target being healed. example: you got rank 1 healing and it heals 50 per casting and you got lets say for sake of simplifications 100 magic atk. now lets say its a 1;1 ratio right? now your healing will heal 50+100 for a total of 150 hp per cast and you got 5x cast rite? thats 150x5 =750 hp total on a single target. not bad rite? now lets say the skill have a side effect of 5% max hp heal at rank1 on target and the target has 3k hp rite? so 5x cast would be a total of 25% hp healed total so 25% hp of 3000 would be 750 hp. so now lets c how much a single healing tick would heal. 150hp Static and 5% of 3000 hp would also be 150 so it would be a total of 300 hp a heal for a total of 300x5 = 1500 hp for 5 healings. so you could say thats pretty good. ofcourse an end game player would have more magic atack. so lets say they have around hmmmm lets not go to high and say they got around 300 matk. so now your rank 1 heal heals for 50+300 so its 350 per single healing cast so thats 350x5 so thats 1750 static hp healed and now we add 5%x5 =25% 3k= 750 + 1750 and you got 2500 healing on 5 cast of healing. seems op but thats what a cleric should be doing when its focusing on healing a single player in a party if he is gona be a dedicated healer. as for party healing we could do the same and make the % on target hp be 20% instead to not be to op or something. hell even 10% would be passable but lets take 20% for now. so lets say you use party healing and you got 300 matk rite?and lets say your party heal heals for 200 and you got 300 matk. then thats 500 heal per cast + the 20% hp mx of the target and lets say one target has 2k hp and the other has 3k hp then the 2k hp target would get 500 hp + 20% of 2k =400 hp for a total of 900 hp a cast and the 3k hp player gets 500 hp + 20% of 3k 600 hp for a total of 1100 hp. as you can c the player with 2k hp got almost 50% hp back on a single party heal bcos the static heal was very high but the 3k hp player got roughly around 33% of their hp back bcos the static heal wasen't as high compared to his max hp but he got more hp from the % max hp so he still got alot of hp still making it good. leme know what you guys things about this sugestion even if its not supoce to be part of the potion disccusion.
    AndrewGR
  • Hisame621Hisame621
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,250
    Posts: 22
    Member
    edited September 21, 2021
    Stormbeast wrote: »
    Just wanted to point a few things out. NOTE: I don't disagree that potion making is tedious.

    1) Summoning pets to heal actually is a free option. part of the dungeon guide gives a nimbus pet just for clearing Alby Normal, and you can also get another healing pet for doing the blaanid quests.
    Edit: although not cheap, players can get the better healing pets (catsidhe and whale) on the AH for gold without buying NX

    2) Grandmaster Apothecary effect actually increases your production without using extra mats (2-5 per craft). So 8 HP 300 crafts that succeed will net you 16-40 pots (usually closer to 20ish)

    3) the issue with empty bottle X10 would be everything else that empty bottles can be used for. It's impractical and is actually the least likely option for them to take.

    With all that being said, I'm sure most players would be happy to just let us craft comprehensive 500 pots. Add 1 new recipe : 1 HP 300, 1 Stam 300, 1 MP 300, and extras (pure white dust, refined catalysts, ect.) and suddenly Potion making becomes much more useful. Adding it as a Dan recipe will even make it more likely to invest in.

    Thanks for adding insight, I didn't know you could get a free nimbus pet.
    I think the Bottle X10 is still possible, it can be used exclusively for some skills where it makes sense, not all skills / things bottles can be used for.
  • scorpin99scorpin99
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,180
    Posts: 22
    Member
    Stormbeast wrote: »
    Just wanted to point a few things out. NOTE: I don't disagree that potion making is tedious.

    1) Summoning pets to heal actually is a free option. part of the dungeon guide gives a nimbus pet just for clearing Alby Normal, and you can also get another healing pet for doing the blaanid quests.
    Edit: although not cheap, players can get the better healing pets (catsidhe and whale) on the AH for gold without buying NX

    2) Grandmaster Apothecary effect actually increases your production without using extra mats (2-5 per craft). So 8 HP 300 crafts that succeed will net you 16-40 pots (usually closer to 20ish)

    3) the issue with empty bottle X10 would be everything else that empty bottles can be used for. It's impractical and is actually the least likely option for them to take.

    With all that being said, I'm sure most players would be happy to just let us craft comprehensive 500 pots. Add 1 new recipe : 1 HP 300, 1 Stam 300, 1 MP 300, and extras (pure white dust, refined catalysts, ect.) and suddenly Potion making becomes much more useful. Adding it as a Dan recipe will even make it more likely to invest in.

    comprehensive 500's 1000's and RE versions of 300-500s of hp/mp/stam are already a Dan 1+ recipie, you just need to use phantasmal sight active to make the comprehensive versions and they benifit from the GM bonus (I made a fair amount of money just grinding out comp 500s this way)

    I just also think that potion lore should be easier to rank up and/or the doubling effect should have a far higher chance to proc
    Stormbeast
  • StormbeastStormbeast
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,290
    Posts: 162
    Member
    edited October 8, 2021
    scorpin99 wrote: »
    Stormbeast wrote: »
    Just wanted to point a few things out. NOTE: I don't disagree that potion making is tedious.

    1) Summoning pets to heal actually is a free option. part of the dungeon guide gives a nimbus pet just for clearing Alby Normal, and you can also get another healing pet for doing the blaanid quests.
    Edit: although not cheap, players can get the better healing pets (catsidhe and whale) on the AH for gold without buying NX

    2) Grandmaster Apothecary effect actually increases your production without using extra mats (2-5 per craft). So 8 HP 300 crafts that succeed will net you 16-40 pots (usually closer to 20ish)

    3) the issue with empty bottle X10 would be everything else that empty bottles can be used for. It's impractical and is actually the least likely option for them to take.

    With all that being said, I'm sure most players would be happy to just let us craft comprehensive 500 pots. Add 1 new recipe : 1 HP 300, 1 Stam 300, 1 MP 300, and extras (pure white dust, refined catalysts, ect.) and suddenly Potion making becomes much more useful. Adding it as a Dan recipe will even make it more likely to invest in.

    comprehensive 500's 1000's and RE versions of 300-500s of hp/mp/stam are already a Dan 1+ recipie, you just need to use phantasmal sight active to make the comprehensive versions and they benifit from the GM bonus (I made a fair amount of money just grinding out comp 500s this way)

    I just also think that potion lore should be easier to rank up and/or the doubling effect should have a far higher chance to proc

    I didn't know this as I haven't managed to pass the dan test yet but it's great to know. Tiro now selling the comprehensive pots in every adv dungeon cuts a lot of the need for this though

    Potion lore is really simple to rank up, self draining effects (ie. respites debuff, mana shield, dorcha conversion) lots of 10s and 30s. Train at the hotsprings to stay un- poisoned
  • KagenokamiKagenokami
    Mabinogi Rep: 885
    Posts: 91
    Member
    I would say option 1 and 2 are appealing. But it definitely seems like it would be more worthwhile for them to instead bump up the existing potions to reasonable hp levels. Rather than 10, start with 100, 30 be 300 and so on. Or something similar.

    Being able to create your own buff potions would 1000% make me happy as hell. Especially if it means being able to craft 2x training pots, although those would HAVE to be made using hard-to-gain ingredients.

    As for the water bottles. I think it would be nice to simply have wells have a right-click option to fill all bottles. Would also maybe help in Mag Mell. Have it auto-calculate the percentages and fill all bottles accordingly. Save a LOT of tedious time and energy.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 34,690
    Posts: 7,902
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    Even with Blaanid's bonus level ups, I'm sure there would be players that would still rely on some lower quality potions (besides 10).
    I know I do when I'm in a pinch.

    But I think instead of making those potions obsolete, I think we can still make use of those potions. If there was a function in potion making like potion conversion, we can convert a vast quantity of lower level potions into something more useful.

    I wonder if that works.
  • NegumikoNegumiko
    Mabinogi Rep: 9,160
    Posts: 1,221
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    let us create herb patches for white herbs, antidote herbs, poison herbs, and mandrake herbs on our homesteads. if potion making is improved by adding a lot more new potions we are going to need a lot more herbs. let players grow every kind of herb on their homestead, those herb patches still take up space so I don't think it would break the game to add this.
    Kensamaofmari
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
    Mabinogi Rep: 34,690
    Posts: 7,902
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    edited November 3, 2021
    Negumiko wrote: »
    let us create herb patches for white herbs, antidote herbs, poison herbs, and mandrake herbs on our homesteads. if potion making is improved by adding a lot more new potions we are going to need a lot more herbs. let players grow every kind of herb on their homestead, those herb patches still take up space so I don't think it would break the game to add this.

    Yes, mandrake patches for homesteads would be nice.