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  • LeineiLeinei
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    Suicide is a pitiable state to be in. Even if is "their" responsibility, that doesn't preclude me from feeling sympathy. I put it in quotations, because it is a complex and individualistic issue.

    If one thinks humans are beyond being merely piece of meat completely free from environmental stimuli, one is wrong. Strong visceral reactions are had differently and in different circumstances. Brain chemistry, genetics, all of that.

    It is rarely a case of "Stop being sad".

    It comes across to me that you're making it like I'm making light of suicidal emotions. I'm not. I was stating that it doesn't make sense for the Milletian to feel "at fault" for the deaths or current conditions for those that appear in their visions. It doesn't make sense.

    Shylock and Elatha were in control of their own destinies and decided their own fates, which granted is sad, but still not the fault of the Milletian. Shylock was willing to kill another man as revenge, but couldn't go through with it. However, without the Milletian's intervention, would this be true?

    Millia's fate wasn't their fault either, because while the Milletian was out of circulation, she acted on her own and got herself abducted (which was due to yet another one of Ruairi's misconceptions of events). Akule would have been far more likely to be considered at fault for her condition due to his playing around to potentially deceive an enemy. Not the Milletian's fault.

    Dian Cecht and and Cessair's Heart were willing to kill others innocent of the event for revenge. STORY-WISE, FOR THE MILLETIAN TO BLAME THEMSELVES FOR LIVES THEY WEREN'T RESPONSIBLE FOR DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. Yes, they can sympathize as you earlier suggested, but to completely blame themselves in a crippling way is absurd.

    Then I remembered the crystal and the fact that it was magic and the fact that there were mental problems as a result of freeing someone via the Prayers of the Humble. That means it likely warps the mind and how people feel about it. That would explain why the Milletian was feeling the way they did. Amplifying and twisting one's mentality is a messed up method of handling your enemies, regardless of what side you're on. That sounds like something the Prophets would do to create Apostles (remember Pihne? Prophet tricks her into a spell that kills her parents and heals her and then that gets used to turn her into an Apostle later?).

    Altam's guilt makes sense if his power was what caused the death of his teacher, even if it was an accident. Avelin's makes sense for not meeting her brother in time before Bruillen attacked and killed him (and supposedly charmed the bands her brother had for her with location seeking magic). For the Milletian, as I said, the guilt felt DOES NOT MAKE SENSE, especially where Mari is involved. Hence, where I was asking where these people have any right to tell off the Milletian.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    edited June 17, 2018
    Leinei wrote: »
    Suicide is a pitiable state to be in. Even if is "their" responsibility, that doesn't preclude me from feeling sympathy. I put it in quotations, because it is a complex and individualistic issue.

    If one thinks humans are beyond being merely piece of meat completely free from environmental stimuli, one is wrong. Strong visceral reactions are had differently and in different circumstances. Brain chemistry, genetics, all of that.

    It is rarely a case of "Stop being sad".

    It comes across to me that you're making it like I'm making light of suicidal emotions. I'm not. I was stating that it doesn't make sense for the Milletian to feel "at fault" for the deaths or current conditions for those that appear in their visions. It doesn't make sense.

    Shylock and Elatha were in control of their own destinies and decided their own fates, which granted is sad, but still not the fault of the Milletian. Shylock was willing to kill another man as revenge, but couldn't go through with it. However, without the Milletian's intervention, would this be true?

    Millia's fate wasn't their fault either, because while the Milletian was out of circulation, she acted on her own and got herself abducted (which was due to yet another one of Ruairi's misconceptions of events). Akule would have been far more likely to be considered at fault for her condition due to his playing around to potentially deceive an enemy. Not the Milletian's fault.

    Dian Cecht and and Cessair's Heart were willing to kill others innocent of the event for revenge. STORY-WISE, FOR THE MILLETIAN TO BLAME THEMSELVES FOR LIVES THEY WEREN'T RESPONSIBLE FOR DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. Yes, they can sympathize as you earlier suggested, but to completely blame themselves in a crippling way is absurd.

    Then I remembered the crystal and the fact that it was magic and the fact that there were mental problems as a result of freeing someone via the Prayers of the Humble. That means it likely warps the mind and how people feel about it. That would explain why the Milletian was feeling the way they did. Amplifying and twisting one's mentality is a messed up method of handling your enemies, regardless of what side you're on. That sounds like something the Prophets would do to create Apostles (remember Pihne? Prophet tricks her into a spell that kills her parents and heals her and then that gets used to turn her into an Apostle later?).

    Altam's guilt makes sense if his power was what caused the death of his teacher, even if it was an accident. Avelin's makes sense for not meeting her brother in time before Bruillen attacked and killed him (and supposedly charmed the bands her brother had for her with location seeking magic). For the Milletian, as I said, the guilt felt DOES NOT MAKE SENSE, especially where Mari is involved. Hence, where I was asking where these people have any right to tell off the Milletian.

    It is possibly one of those savior complexes, or poor writing attempts as such.

    We feel guilt for not having things go differently, much like Altam or Avelin. We question why we continue to help when things are finished at their worst conclusion.

    I am unsure why you quoted my original post. Earlier, I admitted to not understanding your point, and it seems your flipflopping between "This us emotional logic" and "This doesn't make sense from a rational perspective".

    Because essentially, that's the point. We assume guilt where it doesn't belong.

    I agree with Mari due to a complete lack of connection. We were better off if Triona were to replace her. Dian and Cessair also were particularly off putting.

    A few choice words, a few better choices. We ask ourselves "Could Elatha have been happy" or "Could we not have Shylock be such a broken man?" "Could we have prevented Millia's comatose state?"

  • LeineiLeinei
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    edited June 17, 2018
    I quoted your post because as a reply to my original post it comes off as you're saying I'm making light of suicidal emotions like I previously stated in my post previous to this one. That is where my point of contention lies. You also go in to basically lecture me about human emotions, when I've already stated what my initial point was which was AGAIN that it doesn't make sense for the Milletian to feel at fault for a number of the conditions of the people that appear in their crystal vision.

    You keep saying emotions don't have to make sense. I feel they do to some base degree. For example, one isn't going to feel crippling guilt over the death of someone they had to kill in order to save the world when it's painfully obvious it's kill or let all the people you know and care about potentially die. One isn't going to feel crippling guilt over something that they had no part in (Mari) nor opportunity to intervene. It does not make sense.

    In regard to Elatha, his constant struggle with his being, being at odds with the Light and Dark within him probably would have resulted in his suicide at any point. If Andras, the person who knew him best couldn't talk him down, what hope would someone unrelated have? Especially, with his power? How would anyone be able to make sure he wouldn't do the deed once he'd been talked down somewhere in the Shadow Realm?

    Shylock lost his family all at once. Sure, his daughter, Jessica, was acquitted of murder, but she was still sentenced to ten lashes for a conviction of theft. The severity of these wounds resulted in her death, and Leah, Shylock's wife, who was ill at the time died too. He blamed the nobles to the point where he proffered a loan contract to allow him to TAKE AN INNOCENT MAN'S HEART as collateral if they couldn't pay back their debt! In case it's been forgotten, Shakespeare basically sent his soul to a story where his family still existed, in return for his vacant shell, so we can assume to some point that he's at least at peace to a degree there.

    Millia was a constant chore for me to deal with and that makes her very hard for me to sympathize with. She is an angry, selfish, little brat. Yes, she lost her parents (one of them due to Ruairi and to an extent Dian/Heart), but she was constantly at odds with you, blaming you for things that weren't your fault, saying you had to do this, you had to do that. Her picking a fight with Shamala is another point where I lost sympathy with her. Remember she was initially angry with you because you were inconveniencing her magic training because Akule picked up on our cursed self and even went to the point to SABOTAGE it when she sent us on a fool's errand, which resulted in us losing control again. She had heard that we could be turned into a Demon again which could hurt people and she freaking sends us to Bangor for Marble? Across the world? To get us out of the way so she could get a bit more training in? Maybe she would have been better if Akule had told her that he was still alive? Had reassured her that they would get back to her training after he helped the Milletian. Part of me wonders if he even told her that he was her uncle considering she just called him 'Teacher' all the time. If he didn't, then Akule is a colossal jerk to not at least alleviate the fact that she's not all alone in the world family-wise.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    edited June 17, 2018
    Leinei wrote: »
    I quoted your post because as a reply to my original post it comes off as you're saying I'm making light of suicidal emotions like I previously stated in my post previous to this one. That is where my point of contention lies. You also go in to basically lecture me about human emotions, when I've already stated what my initial point was which was AGAIN that it doesn't make sense for the Milletian to feel at fault for a number of the conditions of the people that appear in their crystal vision.

    You keep saying emotions don't have to make sense. I feel they do to some base degree. For example, one isn't going to feel crippling guilt over the death of someone they had to kill in order to save the world when it's painfully obvious it's kill or let all the people you know and care about potentially die. One isn't going to feel crippling guilt over something that they had no part in (Mari) nor opportunity to intervene. It does not make sense.

    In regard to Elatha, his constant struggle with his being, being at odds with the Light and Dark within him probably would have resulted in his suicide at any point. If Andras, the person who knew him best couldn't talk him down, what hope would someone unrelated have? Especially, with his power? How would anyone be able to make sure he wouldn't do the deed once he'd been talked down somewhere in the Shadow Realm?

    Shylock lost his family all at once. Sure, his daughter, Jessica, was acquitted of murder, but she was still sentenced to ten lashes for a conviction of theft. The severity of these wounds resulted in her death, and Leah, Shylock's wife, who was ill at the time died too. He blamed the nobles to the point where he proffered a loan contract to allow him to TAKE AN INNOCENT MAN'S HEART as collateral if they couldn't pay back their debt! In case it's been forgotten, Shakespeare basically sent his soul to a story where his family still existed, in return for his vacant shell, so we can assume to some point that he's at least at peace to a degree there.

    Millia was a constant chore for me to deal with and that makes her very hard for me to sympathize with. She is an angry, selfish, little brat. Yes, she lost her parents (one of them due to Ruairi and to an extent Dian/Heart), but she was constantly at odds with you, blaming you for things that weren't your fault, saying you had to do this, you had to do that. Her picking a fight with Shamala is another point where I lost sympathy with her. Remember she was initially angry with you because you were inconveniencing her magic training because Akule picked up on our cursed self and even went to the point to SABOTAGE it when she sent us on a fool's errand, which resulted in us losing control again. She had heard that we could be turned into a Demon again which could hurt people and she freaking sends us to Bangor for Marble? Across the world? To get us out of the way so she could get a bit more training in? Maybe she would have been better if Akule had told her that he was still alive? Had reassured her that they would get back to her training after he helped the Milletian. Part of me wonders if he even told her that he was her uncle considering she just called him 'Teacher' all the time. If he didn't, then Akule is a colossal jerk to not at least alleviate the fact that she's not all alone in the world family-wise.

    I apologize then. That was not my intention @Lenei .

    It is a rather common view, the one I criticized, so I considered it a type of "In case you argued that", but I believe not that to be an inappropriate assumption for me to continue. For that, I apologize. If anyone gave you flak, let me at them, you hear? :D

    I am beginning to see your point. It doesn't obey the faintest of "Emotional rationale" as well, correct? However, while I agree with the idea that emotional logic does and should have some basis (Hence why I found Mari to be a bizarre edition, as the player never had any direct contact with her, as well as knowing she is deceased.), I find it hard to deny that some of the inclusions, particularly Elatha, are fully devoid of obeying some emotional rationale.

    Even then, while Milia is largely devoid of pity, I cannot state she deserved to be in a coma. By that statement, I doubt even our character is malicious enough to wish that on her, despite her inane mistreatment of us. (Rather than the actual player)

    If Elatha's suicide wasn't necessary, or could have been prevented with the some undue prescience, then I think guilt would be sensible. In essence, it is not that much difference than Altam, who felt guilt over his instructor's death. Altam was a young, prodigious child; he couldn't have foreseen his power leading to the death of his teacher, whose position he ends up inheriting.

    You could say Altam is at fault here by definition, but he lacks the malicious, despite it ending up horribly for either.

    Same thing could be stated with Avelin, who couldn't have known the prophets were tracking her through Mairon's gift.

    Whilst their action may have lead to undesirable outcomes, I find it too utilitarian a measure to assert their moral character. They are not bad people, they just made mistakes. We all made mistakes, or assert that things could have been different, but hindsight is 20/20. It is neither fair to apply it to them or ourselves.

    Which is what I am confused of, as it seems you are stating the emotionally charged logic of Altam and Avelin makes sense on the basis of their own culpability, while disregarding reason expectations of what they should know, or should have done.

    I don't think either should be held responsible in that manner.
  • LeineiLeinei
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    I'm not saying Altam or Avelin should be held responsible, just that the reasons for their guilt makes sense where part of the guilt the Milletian suffers in the crystal does not. Again, why should the Milletian feel guilt over Mari of all people? Like I said, no opportunity to intervene and we already know she's doing well as Nao, so there's not a point to it. It lacks the emotional rationale, like you said. However, if we factor the crystal's magic into this, this lack of rationale could be attributed to it. We already know it has mental affects.

    For starters, Altam and Avelin are Divine Knights. We aren't. We have their skills, but we also don't adhere to their group's base teachings and methodology. We're like a consult they bring in when needed. We aren't truly part of their group, and because of this perhaps the crystal reads the Milletians different than those of the Divine Knights. However, this could also be due to whatever the Prophets "poisoned" us with in G19 (Did that get resolved? or was it resolved when that Ghost Kid fixed out Erg?). Perhaps, there's a programming where the crystal reads it based on the energy of its victims. We were poisoned energy-wise by the Prophets in G19. If that didn't get resolved maybe that marks us akin to Prophets and causes the effect of the crystal to be amplified and warp feelings.

    Remember, Altam and Avelin's feelings make sense in totality. Altam killed his teacher on accident because he couldn't control his power. Avelin feels guilt over not being able to save her brother from Bruillen and the possibility that she (with her brother's gift to her) is the reason the Prophets could find them. These are based in emotional rationale. There is a good REASON for them to feel this way. However, there is also a bit of supposition on Avelin's vision's part, as if the magic only works in her mind and memories, there is no proof that the magic is in her hairbands. She cuts her hair outside of the crystal too, not just in her vision. Remember, she would not have been able to physically move within the crystal, so this would be a separate act. Bruillen in reality never mentions if the reason they keep finding her is because of the hairbands, therefore it is still supposition brought about by Avelin's feelings and memories.

    The Milletian is basically mentally twisted into feeling guilty by magic for having to take out two murderers at least and a little girl who they had no opportunity to intervene in the fate of. That is where the reason falls to the wayside. This is what I'm having a problem with.

    I agree Millia doesn't deserve to be in a coma, but there is nothing the Milletian could do about it. The Shamans are the best to handle the situation. At least, the Milletian was able to save her life and give her the potential to wake up. If Heart had her way, she'd be another corpse and the world would be gone with the aid of Macha.

    In regard to your comparing Elatha to Altam, you have one big difference. Altam had a support system with a number of people and felt like he belonged there. If he had a problem, he could go to someone who would listen. Anytime. Any day.

    Elatha had only Andras. His mother, Neamhain, didn't seem to interact with him much. He felt he didn't belong anywhere in the world like Andras did due to her being thought a Fomor because of the fact that she was raised in a time where Elves weren't commonly known of. They had a kinship from similar feelings. Andras was able to excel by hiding who she really was (an Elf) and disguising herself as a Human. Elatha doesn't have the same capacity to simply hide his ears. He felt utterly alone not being able to exist within the Fomor population (only being tolerated because of the Dark Lord's request) or among the Tuatha de Danaan. The darkness in him was also driving him a bit mad.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    edited June 17, 2018
    Leinei wrote: »
    I'm not saying Altam or Avelin should be held responsible, just that the reasons for their guilt makes sense where part of the guilt the Milletian suffers in the crystal does not. Again, why should the Milletian feel guilt over Mari of all people? Like I said, no opportunity to intervene and we already know she's doing well as Nao, so there's not a point to it. It lacks the emotional rationale, like you said. However, if we factor the crystal's magic into this, this lack of rationale could be attributed to it. We already know it has mental affects.

    For starters, Altam and Avelin are Divine Knights. We aren't. We have their skills, but we also don't adhere to their group's base teachings and methodology. We're like a consult they bring in when needed. We aren't truly part of their group, and because of this perhaps the crystal reads the Milletians different than those of the Divine Knights. However, this could also be due to whatever the Prophets "poisoned" us with in G19 (Did that get resolved? or was it resolved when that Ghost Kid fixed out Erg?). Perhaps, there's a programming where the crystal reads it based on the energy of its victims. We were poisoned energy-wise by the Prophets in G19. If that didn't get resolved maybe that marks us akin to Prophets and causes the effect of the crystal to be amplified and warp feelings.

    Remember, Altam and Avelin's feelings make sense in totality. Altam killed his teacher on accident because he couldn't control his power. Avelin feels guilt over not being able to save her brother from Bruillen and the possibility that she (with her brother's gift to her) is the reason the Prophets could find them. These are based in emotional rationale. There is a good REASON for them to feel this way. However, there is also a bit of supposition on Avelin's vision's part, as if the magic only works in her mind and memories, there is no proof that the magic is in her hairbands. She cuts her hair outside of the crystal too, not just in her vision. Remember, she would not have been able to physically move within the crystal, so this would be a separate act. Bruillen in reality never mentions if the reason they keep finding her is because of the hairbands, therefore it is still supposition brought about by Avelin's feelings and memories.

    The Milletian is basically mentally twisted into feeling guilty by magic for having to take out two murderers at least and a little girl who they had no opportunity to intervene in the fate of. That is where the reason falls to the wayside. This is what I'm having a problem with.

    I agree Millia doesn't deserve to be in a coma, but there is nothing the Milletian could do about it. The Shamans are the best to handle the situation. At least, the Milletian was able to save her life and give her the potential to wake up. If Heart had her way, she'd be another corpse and the world would be gone with the aid of Macha.

    In regard to your comparing Elatha to Altam, you have one big difference. Altam had a support system with a number of people and felt like he belonged there. If he had a problem, he could go to someone who would listen. Anytime. Any day.

    Elatha had only Andras. His mother, Neamhain, didn't seem to interact with him much. He felt he didn't belong anywhere in the world like Andras did due to her being thought a Fomor because of the fact that she was raised in a time where Elves weren't commonly known of. They had a kinship from similar feelings. Andras was able to excel by hiding who she really was (an Elf) and disguising herself as a Human. Elatha doesn't have the same capacity to simply hide his ears. He felt utterly alone not being able to exist within the Fomor population (only being tolerated because of the Dark Lord's request) or among the Tuatha de Danaan. The darkness in him was also driving him a bit mad.

    To clarify, I am mostly debating Elatha and Shylock, and perhaps Ruari or Tarlach. My definition of emotional logic seems to include the "Failure to save or avert" line of thinking, rather then just the "Indirectly Responsibility" line of thinking of Avelin and Altam.

    I believe this is where you and I differ. I do not contest your specific reasoning, per se, but felt you are forgetting that someone with a heroic complex is often depicted as feeling guilt over a past tragedy, regardless of their responsibility and expected foresight.

    The idea of discussing illogic in itself is more difficult than it seems, but I thank you. It is important to understand how others think, including yourself.

    I do, however, contest that the composition of the group as a whole has no bearing on the individual tragedies. Essentially, it may be possible for one or more of them to be reason even if the others are not.

    I apologize for offending you with unjust insinuations. That, to reiterate, was not my intent, nor am I ignoring the lore behind it.
  • LeineiLeinei
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    I'm trying to say the crystal seemingly has different effects on those of Divine Knights and those that aren't. -_-

    Avelin and Altam's visions weren't seen as anything but the events true to what happened, save for the supposition on Vision Bruillen's part regarding Avelin's hairband.

    Ugh... I get the feeling you're still not getting it. The crystal is obviously doing something to US the Milletians that it's not doing to the Divine Knights. It's making us feel bad about killing VILLAINS and for not being around to help with something we didn't have the opportunity. To give you an idea how absurd the crystal is making the Milletian feel, it would be akin to making Avelin feeling guilty over killing Bruillen (if that's what winds up happening). She would be justified in killing her, virtuously as it's for the greater good and emotionally, in terms of the fact that her brother's killer was taken down.
    Utsuro_Bune
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    edited June 17, 2018
    Leinei wrote: »
    I'm trying to say the crystal seemingly has different effects on those of Divine Knights and those that aren't. -_-

    Avelin and Altam's visions weren't seen as anything but the events true to what happened, save for the supposition on Vision Bruillen's part regarding Avelin's hairband.

    Ugh... I get the feeling you're still not getting it. The crystal is obviously doing something to US the Milletians that it's not doing to the Divine Knights. It's making us feel bad about killing VILLAINS and for not being around to help with something we didn't have the opportunity. To give you an idea how absurd the crystal is making the Milletian feel, it would be akin to making Avelin feeling guilty over killing Bruillen (if that's what winds up happening). She would be justified in killing her, virtuously as it's for the greater good and emotionally, in terms of the fact that her brother's killer was taken down.

    It could also be that of differing events.

    I understand the conclusion you are coming to, and agree the Milletian had a more warped view of "events". Or really, not any specific event, in comparison to Avelin or Altam, but merely fragments of guilt coming to mind. Which could be the only impetus for such a drastic change.

    Yet, it doesn't all that illogical to me for some individuals, on the notion concerning "Failing to save or prevent", is what I am saying. I understand what you are saying, but I am hesitant to disagree. Otherwise, we could both chalk it up to egregiously bad story writing.

    Edit: I am actually quite stupid, just a caveat. @Leinei
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
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    The point of the crystal sequence was the person being trapped in there is of their OWN reflection. The NPCs we saw in there are not the actual characters, but the Millitian's memories and feelings projected on to them. The specific Millitian feels guilty, as it says in the text, these are people that they felt they failed. The Millitian has helped many people, and there are people that they could not help or save. Circumstances wise there are cases where its not the fault of the Millitian or even by any actions taken by the Millitian, the issue is the guilt that they just simply could not save them. It is a hint of regret, a sense of failing, that they could have done something more or different to change the outcome.

    Whether the characters in question blamed the Millitian or not is irrelevant, what is relevant is that the Millitian feels responsible for their deaths. As for the disconnect, the Millitian may have the same reasoning as you in their day to day lives, that there was nothing else they could do to save them. The crystal dug deep into their feelings and amplified their guilt so that normal reasoning could not suppress it.

    GretaBlissfulkillUtsuro_Bune
  • SelzyrSelzyr
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    huh, I still think I failed no one, and I find amusing to see Mari there(Nao) since we didn't had any ways to stop what happened to her(already refered by someone else on this post) so kinda stupid she's there? memories? you only seen her on flashbacks, you shouldn't feel remorse for anything regarding her.(unless some people are retarded and feel pity for her)
    As for Altam/Avelin, should we, Milletians give any fudges about it? Don't think we should, in the end, we got dragged into this b.s because of the Knights.

    As for Morrighan and Cichol... . _. still waiting the day where I can stab Cichol and burn Morrighan.
  • HellkaizerHellkaizer
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    Selzyr wrote: »
    huh, I still think I failed no one, and I find amusing to see Mari there(Nao) since we didn't had any ways to stop what happened to her(already refered by someone else on this post) so kinda stupid she's there? memories? you only seen her on flashbacks, you shouldn't feel remorse for anything regarding her.(unless some people are retarded and feel pity for her)
    As for Altam/Avelin, should we, Milletians give any fudges about it? Don't think we should, in the end, we got dragged into this b.s because of the Knights.

    As for Morrighan and Cichol... . _. still waiting the day where I can stab Cichol and burn Morrighan.

    I can maybe understand nao... maybe? But not mari for sure. I get Ruairi though. Like I said earlier a lot of those characters were hellbent on destruction without our interference, even though the crystals seem to amplify negative emotions you can't feel something that isn't there. Tarlach flew too close to the sun and got burned, I really don't feel bad for him or feel like I let him down either. If Millia actually listened for once in her life instead of either whining or drooling over akule maybe things would've gone better for her.
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
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    Selzyr wrote: »
    huh, I still think I failed no one, and I find amusing to see Mari there(Nao) since we didn't had any ways to stop what happened to her(already refered by someone else on this post) so kinda stupid she's there? memories? you only seen her on flashbacks, you shouldn't feel remorse for anything regarding her.(unless some people are retarded and feel pity for her)
    As for Altam/Avelin, should we, Milletians give any fudges about it? Don't think we should, in the end, we got dragged into this b.s because of the Knights.

    As for Morrighan and Cichol... . _. still waiting the day where I can stab Cichol and burn Morrighan.

    There is an emotional disconnect between the player and the player character. The specific Millitian that plays within the story holds much more empathy for the characters in the world. This has always been the case since the very early in the story. In G2 when it was discovered that Rian was the "brain" of the golem and was long dead, Price reminds the PC that there was nothing they could've done, even though the character showed sadness and regret at the outcome. So while YOU, the player, do not feel responsible, the player character in the story does. In fact it even feels like the PC is constantly is actually mostly putting up a front of happiness in the recent generation, becoming more jaded as they let more and more friends slip away.

    One thing to remember is that the Millitian in the generations stories has a set of morality, thoughts and feelings that are different from the character the player actually projects outside of these stories. Basically the player character in the story =/= you, the player. To simply put, the player character is significantly more invested in Erinn than you, the player, are. Things that affect them emotionally may not affect you.
  • SelzyrSelzyr
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    GTCvActium wrote: »
    Selzyr wrote: »
    huh, I still think I failed no one, and I find amusing to see Mari there(Nao) since we didn't had any ways to stop what happened to her(already refered by someone else on this post) so kinda stupid she's there? memories? you only seen her on flashbacks, you shouldn't feel remorse for anything regarding her.(unless some people are retarded and feel pity for her)
    As for Altam/Avelin, should we, Milletians give any fudges about it? Don't think we should, in the end, we got dragged into this b.s because of the Knights.

    As for Morrighan and Cichol... . _. still waiting the day where I can stab Cichol and burn Morrighan.

    There is an emotional disconnect between the player and the player character. The specific Millitian that plays within the story holds much more empathy for the characters in the world. This has always been the case since the very early in the story. In G2 when it was discovered that Rian was the "brain" of the golem and was long dead, Price reminds the PC that there was nothing they could've done, even though the character showed sadness and regret at the outcome. So while YOU, the player, do not feel responsible, the player character in the story does. In fact it even feels like the PC is constantly is actually mostly putting up a front of happiness in the recent generation, becoming more jaded as they let more and more friends slip away.

    One thing to remember is that the Millitian in the generations stories has a set of morality, thoughts and feelings that are different from the character the player actually projects outside of these stories. Basically the player character in the story =/= you, the player. To simply put, the player character is significantly more invested in Erinn than you, the player, are. Things that affect them emotionally may not affect you.

    all nice and dandy, but my character is ME, my set of morality is the set of morality of my PC, there's a disconnet that you can't choose "how you should have acted" in-game and your PC acts on its own, retarded I would say.

    and
    GTCvActium wrote: »
    In fact it even feels like the PC is constantly is actually mostly putting up a front of happiness in the recent generation, becoming more jaded as they let more and more friends slip away.

    That is way to similar to the retardation of Emiya, and I dislike that our character is portraited that way without us having any way to "change it", flawled story writting.
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,125
    Posts: 661
    Member
    Selzyr wrote: »
    GTCvActium wrote: »
    Selzyr wrote: »
    huh, I still think I failed no one, and I find amusing to see Mari there(Nao) since we didn't had any ways to stop what happened to her(already refered by someone else on this post) so kinda stupid she's there? memories? you only seen her on flashbacks, you shouldn't feel remorse for anything regarding her.(unless some people are retarded and feel pity for her)
    As for Altam/Avelin, should we, Milletians give any fudges about it? Don't think we should, in the end, we got dragged into this b.s because of the Knights.

    As for Morrighan and Cichol... . _. still waiting the day where I can stab Cichol and burn Morrighan.

    There is an emotional disconnect between the player and the player character. The specific Millitian that plays within the story holds much more empathy for the characters in the world. This has always been the case since the very early in the story. In G2 when it was discovered that Rian was the "brain" of the golem and was long dead, Price reminds the PC that there was nothing they could've done, even though the character showed sadness and regret at the outcome. So while YOU, the player, do not feel responsible, the player character in the story does. In fact it even feels like the PC is constantly is actually mostly putting up a front of happiness in the recent generation, becoming more jaded as they let more and more friends slip away.

    One thing to remember is that the Millitian in the generations stories has a set of morality, thoughts and feelings that are different from the character the player actually projects outside of these stories. Basically the player character in the story =/= you, the player. To simply put, the player character is significantly more invested in Erinn than you, the player, are. Things that affect them emotionally may not affect you.

    all nice and dandy, but my character is ME, my set of morality is the set of morality of my PC, there's a disconnet that you can't choose "how you should have acted" in-game and your PC acts on its own, retarded I would say.

    and
    GTCvActium wrote: »
    In fact it even feels like the PC is constantly is actually mostly putting up a front of happiness in the recent generation, becoming more jaded as they let more and more friends slip away.

    That is way to similar to the retardation of Emiya, and I dislike that our character is portraited that way without us having any way to "change it", flawled story writting.

    Accounting for all morality possibilities and mindsets is extremely difficult to write/make interesting, so the player character is written as a distinct character for the purpose of storytelling. Another way to look at this is that the Millitian you play in the generation isn't actually "your" character, but someone else entirely and you're reliving their memories in some kind of open boarders RP mission. This would explain why you can fail missions and objectives and go back to redo them again, or any predetermined failures (being defeated by Ruairi, repeatedly) cannot be altered even though by all accounts it is possible to succeed or even demolish the opposing forces.

    Also you should make the distinction that these are not affecting our characters too much in their actions, but rather it is their guilt deep down being manifested. Rather I interpret this as a positive trait the Millitian has, it shows that even though they feel guilt, regret, and responsibility for "failing" these people, they still push on wanting to help people even if it means they may fail more people down the line.
    Kingofrunes