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Statistical Debate Forum Regarding Race Imbalance

ShoogShoog
Mabinogi Rep: 5,535
Posts: 883
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edited January 16, 2017 in General Chat
This discussion was created from comments split from: Most Desired Revamp Poll.

EDIT: Idk why I'm the OP for this thread... urgh, these new forums...

I tried to split the convo from the old thread into this new one for you. This new forum seems to be a bit limited on what we can do compared to the old one so I apologize. Hopefully the entire discussion is complete in this thread though.
BerrySwirlPeloiNearlySherri

Comments

  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,440
    Posts: 1,701
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    edited March 2, 2017
    I'm reposting this forum for players who would like to point out the calculations behind the statistics for each race and how it's out of balance. Keep in mind to also suggest how to fix the problem. This post is also to remove giant walls of text in the most desired revamp poll and provide a common ground for players to freely debate which race and skill sets need updating. Shoog is temporary OP until we can get better forum mod controls. WARNING: please post lore heated arguments here instead, or else I'll be forced to summon the Vmod.


    @Kaga Elf Skills and Stats pretty much fall into the old skills category. Hopefully a Racial Rebirth Revamp will also aid in improving the stats for base, skills, and races across the board.
    Kagal3unni
  • KagaKaga
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,960
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    Darkpixie99

    @Kaga Elf Skills and Stats pretty much fall into the old skills category. Hopefully a Racial Rebirth Revamp will also aid in improving the stats for base, skills, and races across the board.
    @Darkpixie99

    Well it's mainly elves in general not just their skills.
    "Elf speed" is for example pretty much useless compared to the other "advantages" other races have (plus we have fast pets, speed pots etc etc now anyways)
    And range on pet is only useful for phantasm solo so..
    I also thought when you said "racial rebirth" you literally meant "rebirth".
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,440
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    @Kaga I thought everyone pretty much knew that we would need to have the capability to switch between races if every race can marry each other at some point. But yeah, other than the cosmetics of elves, elf speed bonus is only good for new players looking to learn from veteran players. Heck, we even have a persona that grants 100% speed bonus for a short burst of time, so why do elves really need to keep it? Archery doesn't really require the player to be fast nowadays, what with Lullaby and all the Nimbus pets keeping enemies pinned down all the time. It would be nice to see some mounted combat with humans as well, even if it is just for lances and two handed swords. I'm not quite sure what sort of pet and combat abilities would mix well for Giants, but like you said mounted combat just doesn't get used much. It's pretty much leaving yourself wide open to an instant kill with no defense, and it's very bad if you miss 75% of your Archery targets, so I've never seen it actually used in dungeons as a legit strategy. At the most, it was used when I was with other veteran players who just wanted to quickly kill stuff for the fun of it. We might need to add something in like an RP as the Guardian of Longa Ruins with a revamp of new abilities to mounted pets and new dungeons only able to be completed with mounting a pet, before scrapping mounted combat altogether.
  • KagaKaga
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    Darkpixie99

    @Kaga I thought everyone pretty much knew that we would need to have the capability to switch between races if every race can marry each other at some point. But yeah, other than the cosmetics of elves, elf speed bonus is only good for new players looking to learn from veteran players. Heck, we even have a persona that grants 100% speed bonus for a short burst of time, so why do elves really need to keep it? Archery doesn't really require the player to be fast nowadays, what with Lullaby and all the Nimbus pets keeping enemies pinned down all the time. It would be nice to see some mounted combat with humans as well, even if it is just for lances and two handed swords. I'm not quite sure what sort of pet and combat abilities would mix well for Giants, but like you said mounted combat just doesn't get used much. It's pretty much leaving yourself wide open to an instant kill with no defense, and it's very bad if you miss 75% of your Archery targets, so I've never seen it actually used in dungeons as a legit strategy. At the most, it was used when I was with other veteran players who just wanted to quickly kill stuff for the fun of it. We might need to add something in like an RP as the Guardian of Longa Ruins with a revamp of new abilities to mounted pets and new dungeons only able to be completed with mounting a pet, before scrapping mounted combat altogether.
    Yeah I agree.

    Usually when I say "Elf Revamp" I don't just mean make elves OP in archery. It's not just that.
    IMO they should give elves new "skill sets" that they can be BETTER at than humans/giants.
    They should probably update "Magic" for elves too and give them advantage in that.

    I mean look at the renovation.. Humans got obviously OP FH.
    On Magic Renovation we got Lighting Rod (Which is OP but can't keep up with FH) and on top of that ALL RACES can use it.
    And archery? I don't even want to start there. The only thing that would make sense is if elves got some good updates in Archery Renovation and some nice skills that would make them as good as humans in their own ways. But they only got urgent shot, which is pretty silly compared to FH, dual wield mastery, Lighting Rod etc.

    Not sure about the archery though, every class has something unique, elves can archer mount, humans can dual wield and giants can wield 2h with a shield so.. maybe if they gave elves something else exclusive I wouldn't mind humans getting mount archery.
    Darkpixie99
  • SirRyuSirRyu
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,390
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    edited January 10, 2017
    Kaga
    Kaga said:

    Darkpixie99

    @Kaga I thought everyone pretty much knew that we would need to have the capability to switch between races if every race can marry each other at some point. But yeah, other than the cosmetics of elves, elf speed bonus is only good for new players looking to learn from veteran players. Heck, we even have a persona that grants 100% speed bonus for a short burst of time, so why do elves really need to keep it? Archery doesn't really require the player to be fast nowadays, what with Lullaby and all the Nimbus pets keeping enemies pinned down all the time. It would be nice to see some mounted combat with humans as well, even if it is just for lances and two handed swords. I'm not quite sure what sort of pet and combat abilities would mix well for Giants, but like you said mounted combat just doesn't get used much. It's pretty much leaving yourself wide open to an instant kill with no defense, and it's very bad if you miss 75% of your Archery targets, so I've never seen it actually used in dungeons as a legit strategy. At the most, it was used when I was with other veteran players who just wanted to quickly kill stuff for the fun of it. We might need to add something in like an RP as the Guardian of Longa Ruins with a revamp of new abilities to mounted pets and new dungeons only able to be completed with mounting a pet, before scrapping mounted combat altogether.
    Yeah I agree.

    Usually when I say "Elf Revamp" I don't just mean make elves OP in archery. It's not just that.
    IMO they should give elves new "skill sets" that they can be BETTER at than humans/giants.
    They should probably update "Magic" for elves too and give them advantage in that.

    I mean look at the renovation.. Humans got obviously OP FH.
    On Magic Renovation we got Lighting Rod (Which is OP but can't keep up with FH) and on top of that ALL RACES can use it.
    And archery? I don't even want to start there. The only thing that would make sense is if elves got some good updates in Archery Renovation and some nice skills that would make them as good as humans in their own ways. But they only got urgent shot, which is pretty silly compared to FH, dual wield mastery, Lighting Rod etc.

    Not sure about the archery though, every class has something unique, elves can archer mount, humans can dual wield and giants can wield 2h with a shield so.. maybe if they gave elves something else exclusive I wouldn't mind humans getting mount archery.
    Seems like someone is forgetting about that new update just around the corner that gives elves a buff skill that gives +400% aim speed during the duration and the duration time is influenced by your total level.
    Clovis15
  • KagaKaga
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,960
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    edited January 10, 2017
    SirRyu
    SirRyu said:

    Kaga
    Kaga said:

    Darkpixie99

    @Kaga I thought everyone pretty much knew that we would need to have the capability to switch between races if every race can marry each other at some point. But yeah, other than the cosmetics of elves, elf speed bonus is only good for new players looking to learn from veteran players. Heck, we even have a persona that grants 100% speed bonus for a short burst of time, so why do elves really need to keep it? Archery doesn't really require the player to be fast nowadays, what with Lullaby and all the Nimbus pets keeping enemies pinned down all the time. It would be nice to see some mounted combat with humans as well, even if it is just for lances and two handed swords. I'm not quite sure what sort of pet and combat abilities would mix well for Giants, but like you said mounted combat just doesn't get used much. It's pretty much leaving yourself wide open to an instant kill with no defense, and it's very bad if you miss 75% of your Archery targets, so I've never seen it actually used in dungeons as a legit strategy. At the most, it was used when I was with other veteran players who just wanted to quickly kill stuff for the fun of it. We might need to add something in like an RP as the Guardian of Longa Ruins with a revamp of new abilities to mounted pets and new dungeons only able to be completed with mounting a pet, before scrapping mounted combat altogether.
    Yeah I agree.

    Usually when I say "Elf Revamp" I don't just mean make elves OP in archery. It's not just that.
    IMO they should give elves new "skill sets" that they can be BETTER at than humans/giants.
    They should probably update "Magic" for elves too and give them advantage in that.

    I mean look at the renovation.. Humans got obviously OP FH.
    On Magic Renovation we got Lighting Rod (Which is OP but can't keep up with FH) and on top of that ALL RACES can use it.
    And archery? I don't even want to start there. The only thing that would make sense is if elves got some good updates in Archery Renovation and some nice skills that would make them as good as humans in their own ways. But they only got urgent shot, which is pretty silly compared to FH, dual wield mastery, Lighting Rod etc.

    Not sure about the archery though, every class has something unique, elves can archer mount, humans can dual wield and giants can wield 2h with a shield so.. maybe if they gave elves something else exclusive I wouldn't mind humans getting mount archery.
    Seems like someone is forgetting about that new update just around the corner that gives elves a buff skill that gives +400% aim speed during the duration and the duration time is influenced by your total level.
    @SirRyu

    Seems like someone is forgetting that not every elf is some kind of generic magnum spammer (archer)

    I am no Archer elf so that "update/buff" is practically useless for me.
    I also live in EU which gives me another range disadvantage.

    I would love to see some more buffs though, like magic for elves etc.

    Merlin update did buff mage yes, and renovation gave us nice mage skills (LR being OP)
    But the main problem here is; Everyone can take advantage of the buff/revamps/new skills when it comes to magic.

    I want to see something exclusive for elves considering they are also meant to be in advantage (magic) compared to humans/giants.

    And even with that +400% Aim Speed elves will simply spam Magnum faster, the end.

    Oh yeah, and like you said; It's Total level dependent. I don't see FH being that or dual wielding.
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,440
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    edited January 10, 2017
    @Kaga @SirRyu It doesn't really matter which race is more OP at the moment, as a race balancing is something that needs to be done after so many years, but Nexon has failed to notice it yet or point it out. If you really need to share the statistics, make sure to share a link to a separate debate forum to keep this one on the discussion and questions of the poll. The statistics may support the need for this revamp to be talked about by Nexon NA and KR on Twitch even more. The option is there in the poll, if anyone dedicated to hardcore PvP and PvE really thinks a race re-balance has to be done, make sure to mark it. It's something that can be done earlier than the ability to rebirth and marry between races, yet released at the same time as a skill revamp.
  • BerrySwirlBerrySwirl
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    Jeez that's a lot of text walls.
    CrimsọnKttypennybrenda
  • VasumatiVasumati
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    What i'd like to see is the devs stop favouring humans so much. They favour humans so much its ridiculous. They give them OP final hit. and something else that really upset me, is the celtic weapons. There are all sorts of celtic weapons... axes hamemrs swords crossbows knuckles cylidners... and yet, only the one handed sword gets a stupidly strong skill of bash enhancment and dura reduction loss. WHY is it only the HUMAN weapons that get it? WHY do they favour humans so much? Also look at the G20 weapons... the one handed sword once again gets a unique buff... at least the two handed sword gets one but its not even that great. And also humans get to pick between 2 transformations... Please stop Favouring humans. It's not right. As a giant it's not so bad, i can still get by. But the elves.. i jsut feel sorry for them. They are so underpowered... Balance the races and stop loving humans so much...

    And on a seperate note, i'd like to see "Two Handed Weapon Mastery" and i'd also like to see Polearms in the game. This has been seriously long overdue.
    KagaLadamePeloiBerrySwirlDaktaroMilkypockyImaizumiHiroki05
  • SAY_NO_toninjarevampSAY_NO_toninjarevamp
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    I believe there was a statistic in KR that stated that more than 60% of the player population plays human (especially in end-game content). Why would you alienate your main player base?

    Well good for you, because the new director is ready to do just that. He has buffed elves to be best in class archers (which in respect actually makes them highest DPS users), and soon will buff giants more because 10% melee damage wasn't enough to make them any better in the meta than they were previously (well, except GFS is still OP). First thing he says is he'll closely monitor and balance races as needed but so far it looks to be benefiting any race but human - goodness gracious. That's just great. And he did all this by listening to the feedback of Koreans (who can blame him, KR is the home country of the game).

    Do understand that any suggestion is made moot if it's beyond the scope of implementation (I think most people here have already accepted that). As an example, a race change could be too hard to implement... Say you do get your idea pitched to a Korean dev who knows what he's dealing with, and somehow it's a viable change with little effort... It still has to make it passed the multiple devs including the director. I think we already know we're just making echoes here but... I wish we focused on efforts that would be easier to implement, especially in our localization of the game.

    Are we trying to dawdle around and consider possible what-ifs? We're divided on those fronts because they haven't been implemented and we can't predict all the effects of any change that hasn't already been. Even if we reach a general consensus, it's not likely any sort of action will be taken (this game comes from South KR). I like a lot of the suggestions... but I realize what I'm reading so far composes of mostly wishful thinking. (We can't even avoid nerfs that have nothing to do with us, like VHM nerf and Saga 2 EP 6 nerf)

    We've already skipped over an auction house, a ninja revamp, a VIP/housing/banking revamp, 20k ducat mysterious reforges (I'm sure people from other regions can add to the list easily)... and we have little to no discussion when it comes to these changes that are ALREADY present in the original country of origin (KR). Our 'exclusive' adventurer seal shop was taken and improvised into KR. Mission point was almost an exclusive, until it was recently done in KR. Seriously? Can we at least agree that catching up should be a priority instead of being divided on ideas that are likely to never see the light of day?

    Maybe I'm out of touch with the community. Maybe I haven't joined in enough discussions to know the reasoning behind this. But I want to at least pose this question: Do you think your suggestions will last as more than an afterthought? (If this sounds condescending, I apologize in advance, I don't want to rub people off the wrong way but I had to eventually say something)

    By the way, I'm not sure people understand what happened with FH. The skill received its first rendition of buffs at 200% damage and was deemed to not have any appeal in test servers. It was then buffed even further, until attractive enough for use, But it was obvious enough that it was appealing to the larger part of the player base (the humans). The new director is moving in favor of the other races but it isn't without its own backlash. I think race balancing is a complicated issue, and any suggestions we make won't have any impact. KR will decide this moving forward, as is the same with other servers. Only they have the resources to dedicate to such a huge task and thus' it is only fair that their player base (which is at least 10 times larger than ours and much more stable) gets priority in their voicing of opinions on the state of the game.

    /rant

    I'm still interested in what people want to say... but it'd be nice if we don't have fresh new ideas thrown into the wind every few hours, and instead focused on efforts that could make an impact. Unless I'm in the wrong forum for that.
    KitsuyashaImaizumi
  • KagaKaga
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,960
    Posts: 611
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    edited January 15, 2017
    Elves need revamp.
    Elves are the worst race at the moment.
    Archery is only good if you live in KR or if you just magnum spam like any mainstream generic elf archer.
    FH needs to be nerfed or they have to buff every other skill.
    If it's hard to balance the races or revamp them, remove them all together and let everyone play as humans.

    /Thread
    Peloi
  • VasumatiVasumati
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,165
    Posts: 76
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    SAY_NO_toninjarevamp

    I believe there was a statistic in KR that stated that more than 60% of the player population plays human (especially in end-game content). Why would you alienate your main player base?

    Well good for you, because the new director is ready to do just that. He has buffed elves to be best in class archers (which in respect actually makes them highest DPS users), and soon will buff giants more because 10% melee damage wasn't enough to make them any better in the meta than they were previously (well, except GFS is still OP). First thing he says is he'll closely monitor and balance races as needed but so far it looks to be benefiting any race but human - goodness gracious. That's just great. And he did all this by listening to the feedback of Koreans (who can blame him, KR is the home country of the game).

    Do understand that any suggestion is made moot if it's beyond the scope of implementation (I think most people here have already accepted that). As an example, a race change could be too hard to implement... Say you do get your idea pitched to a Korean dev who knows what he's dealing with, and somehow it's a viable change with little effort... It still has to make it passed the multiple devs including the director. I think we already know we're just making echoes here but... I wish we focused on efforts that would be easier to implement, especially in our localization of the game.

    Are we trying to dawdle around and consider possible what-ifs? We're divided on those fronts because they haven't been implemented and we can't predict all the effects of any change that hasn't already been. Even if we reach a general consensus, it's not likely any sort of action will be taken (this game comes from South KR). I like a lot of the suggestions... but I realize what I'm reading so far composes of mostly wishful thinking. (We can't even avoid nerfs that have nothing to do with us, like VHM nerf and Saga 2 EP 6 nerf)

    We've already skipped over an auction house, a ninja revamp, a VIP/housing/banking revamp, 20k ducat mysterious reforges (I'm sure people from other regions can add to the list easily)... and we have little to no discussion when it comes to these changes that are ALREADY present in the original country of origin (KR). Our 'exclusive' adventurer seal shop was taken and improvised into KR. Mission point was almost an exclusive, until it was recently done in KR. Seriously? Can we at least agree that catching up should be a priority instead of being divided on ideas that are likely to never see the light of day?

    Maybe I'm out of touch with the community. Maybe I haven't joined in enough discussions to know the reasoning behind this. But I want to at least pose this question: Do you think your suggestions will last as more than an afterthought? (If this sounds condescending, I apologize in advance, I don't want to rub people off the wrong way but I had to eventually say something)

    By the way, I'm not sure people understand what happened with FH. The skill received its first rendition of buffs at 200% damage and was deemed to not have any appeal in test servers. It was then buffed even further, until attractive enough for use, But it was obvious enough that it was appealing to the larger part of the player base (the humans). The new director is moving in favor of the other races but it isn't without its own backlash. I think race balancing is a complicated issue, and any suggestions we make won't have any impact. KR will decide this moving forward, as is the same with other servers. Only they have the resources to dedicate to such a huge task and thus' it is only fair that their player base (which is at least 10 times larger than ours and much more stable) gets priority in their voicing of opinions on the state of the game.

    /rant

    I'm still interested in what people want to say... but it'd be nice if we don't have fresh new ideas thrown into the wind every few hours, and instead focused on efforts that could make an impact. Unless I'm in the wrong forum for that.
    If what you say is true, then that's a good. thing. Humans have been getting all the goodies for far too long. They are Seriously favourited over the other races. I don't know where you got this information from,; but if the director is gonna start helping the other two races out instead of humans then i GLADLY welcome it. It's about damn time.
  • EdethaEdetha
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,075
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    You'll have to remember, a good deal of the population is human, simply because a while ago, you only got one "free" character card... but if you selected a human as your first character, you could also get a free elf card and a free giant card. So people did that, and ended up sticking with their human.
    Greta
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,440
    Posts: 1,701
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    edited January 16, 2017
    @Kaga has a point, I really think Elves are kinda given less of a chance at CQC style combat simply because they were originally built for Archery. I went back to my Elf alt one day and found the miss chance so high that it would frustrate a new player to the point of going a different class or race altogether. I don't recall ever playing my Giant that much, but the Stomp skill just seemed so useless in anything that wasn't ice fishing or for an Ice Pillar. I think we have a need for sharing a few skills through the races, because it just doesn't make sense these days to have exclusive skills aside from transformations. The only real advantage elves have is getting a free player across the continent by foot faster, while Giants can Ice Fish. There's really no point for me to play anything but a human, because no other race seems worth playing aside from the cosmetics.
    KagaPeloi
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,440
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    edited January 16, 2017
    Regarding the current skill system changes in the KR Server as of 2016.11.17 11:00: The link is down below, but I'm going to do my best google translated summary.
    -Again, this is all just assumptions based off of google translated garbage.
    1) It appears that total level will now influence the bonus exp gained by training skills. (Another Possibility: Talent system may now have additional bonus training applied depending on the total level of your character calculated by every 100 levels.)
    2)AP System: (I really didn't get what was going here, but maybe it's just a summary of the AP System itself with no changes.)
    3) New Skills: The potenial system was updated (May be referring to the transfer to the Talent system, or a new additonal system altogether.) along with a few new skills that were listed.
    ***HOWEVER The balance between races WAS noted as an ongoing hot issue among the players in KR.***
    (This means that the devs ARE in fact aware, and likely working in the background to find a fix.)
    4)Level 1-100 is easier, not that large of an adjustment in my opinion. However, they did say it would be more comfortable to level.
    5)Current Level of your Character is easier to see in the character information menu.
    http://mabinogi.nexon.com/page/news/update_view.asp?id=4885027

    [What that means for the NA Server:
    New skills, easier to level skills, and a future race balance revamp. We can still upvote Racial Balance to a revamp we want to see happen right away, but keep in mind that the devs are aware and working on it. We just get to pester them about the statistics and when it's coming.]
    Peloi
  • BerrySwirlBerrySwirl
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,875
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    edited January 16, 2017
    I don't really want to play as a human or giant, so a revamp would be nice.

    I would love if elves could dual wield and use Final Hit. It's such an overpowered skill, as already stated in this thread. And it is odd how only humans can use it, giants can dual wield, can they not? Yet they don't get FH. I don't have any idea why elves are so "weak/dainty" that they can't use two swords at once, or even daggers. Sure Nexon tried to make up for FH by giving us Final Shot, but it is still seriously under-powered, and there was a whole thing where people complained elves could teleport with FS, but they forget one thing, FS Doesn't last nearly as long as FH, and teleporting takes away the time faster, so we can use even less of it for the little damage it gives us.

    Even if being able to duel wield and giving elves FH is all we would get, I'd be pretty happy with it. I love to use the chef knives to pseudo dual wield, and have multiple to do so. Like it might technically one handed, but it is two swords. Even different sizes, and elves can use those. Why tease us and not actually give us the ability to dual wield?
    Peloi
  • EraleaEralea
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    Maike has Final Hit.

    If he can do it surely us OP demigod milletians can do it too lel
    SaffronBeige
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
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    Regarding the current teaser for Gaints on Nexon KR, please keep any off topic racial debates here. Thanks.
    Currently there are multiple things improved, but they're all off topic until tests on the test server have been completed.
    -New event
    -Ability to fly in multiple areas that were previously no fly zones
    -Teaser For New Giant Update (What that entails is currently just a tease, any changes in balance have not yet been stated.)
  • AlmostNotsuperAlmostNotsuper
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    I'm glad giants are getting an update. Finally, we won't be the weakest race anymore.
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
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    Please leave final hit alone, it allows me to solo a dungeon quickly. :|
This discussion has been closed.