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[WARNING KR SPOILERS]Giant Update (if we get it?)

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  • IntimacyIntimacy
    Mabinogi Rep: 220
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    edited November 2, 2018
    Azurexrin wrote: »
    Intimacy wrote: »
    This is a massive nerf that basically pushes humans further into brioslave territory than they already are. They have NOTHING ELSE that's comparable dps wise to elves or giants.

    I play on all characters, but mostly human and a human player relying on FH for Single Target DPS and not as Brio/trash mob clearing is bad.

    So, what would be the comparable DPS? Nothing realistically, there is no absolute way to outdps an Elf's Magnum Shot when they know timings for 100% hits as fast as possible. Human Bash and FH already pales in comparison to Giant Smash >2x Bash combo. Humans have always been the jack of all trades, master of none.

    FH against bosses w/ reduced prot is and always should be used with Control Bars.

    So, what do I use for Single target? Considering I mostly solo play, I use lance charge and chain impale whenever I can't cbar FH for "eznogi ha press 1 button and not care," and when I'm pressed on time I'd rather use impale/LC. Currently I do 100k crit LC's, r6, no divine lance, no DM, no SS, no RI and I do not have an echo stone w/ a [lance weapon] lance charge damage roll yet. And for Impales, I do 90k crits, r6, no celtic chain, no reforged chain blade, no DM, no SS, no RI.

    My Ele FH is 30k on crits. And the above Lance Charge/Impales are non ele. So.

    Also, no Fierce/Avenger/Creepy Haunted accs. Bring Back Creepy Haunted.

    Edit:
    I also use Firebolt from time to time and those are 40~50k's.




    My elf is close to launching 100k magnum shots without ele. She's also 5k total. Anything humans can do elves or giants can do better. So go on and tell me, what compares to elf or giant dps on a human, what can humans bring to endgame party play? Lance charge isn't sustainable dps and neither is ss+impale, firebolt is also niche.

    Elves use chain and magic better, giants use lances better. Try to answer the question. "What can humans actually do to keep up with elf and giant dps or what can they do better than elf or giant". At endgame they legitimately have final hit, everything else the other two races do better.
  • HellkaizerHellkaizer
    Mabinogi Rep: 11,305
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    Intimacy wrote: »
    Azurexrin wrote: »
    Intimacy wrote: »
    This is a massive nerf that basically pushes humans further into brioslave territory than they already are. They have NOTHING ELSE that's comparable dps wise to elves or giants.

    I play on all characters, but mostly human and a human player relying on FH for Single Target DPS and not as Brio/trash mob clearing is bad.

    So, what would be the comparable DPS? Nothing realistically, there is no absolute way to outdps an Elf's Magnum Shot when they know timings for 100% hits as fast as possible. Human Bash and FH already pales in comparison to Giant Smash >2x Bash combo. Humans have always been the jack of all trades, master of none.

    FH against bosses w/ reduced prot is and always should be used with Control Bars.

    So, what do I use for Single target? Considering I mostly solo play, I use lance charge and chain impale whenever I can't cbar FH for "eznogi ha press 1 button and not care," and when I'm pressed on time I'd rather use impale/LC. Currently I do 100k crit LC's, r6, no divine lance, no DM, no SS, no RI and I do not have an echo stone w/ a [lance weapon] lance charge damage roll yet. And for Impales, I do 90k crits, r6, no celtic chain, no reforged chain blade, no DM, no SS, no RI.

    My Ele FH is 30k on crits. And the above Lance Charge/Impales are non ele. So.

    Also, no Fierce/Avenger/Creepy Haunted accs. Bring Back Creepy Haunted.

    Edit:
    I also use Firebolt from time to time and those are 40~50k's.




    My elf is close to launching 100k magnum shots without ele. She's also 5k total. Anything humans can do elves or giants can do better. So go on and tell me, what compares to elf or giant dps on a human, what can humans bring to endgame party play? Lance charge isn't sustainable dps and neither is ss+impale, firebolt is also niche.

    Elves use chain and magic better, giants use lances better. Try to answer the question. "What can humans actually do to keep up with elf and giant dps or what can they do better than elf or giant". At endgame they legitimately have final hit, everything else the other two races do better.

    I think you're forgetting that these are numbers, the amount of people actually at the point that their giant/elf is better than most try hard humans is very, very small. I'd even bet that the amount of people with dan 3 mag is minuscule, after 370 ish attempts I finally got it but it was one of the most frustrating things I've ever done in game.
  • IntimacyIntimacy
    Mabinogi Rep: 220
    Posts: 10
    Member
    Azurexrin wrote: »
    Intimacy wrote: »
    This is a massive nerf that basically pushes humans further into brioslave territory than they already are. They have NOTHING ELSE that's comparable dps wise to elves or giants.

    I play on all characters, but mostly human and a human player relying on FH for Single Target DPS and not as Brio/trash mob clearing is bad.

    So, what would be the comparable DPS? Nothing realistically, there is no absolute way to outdps an Elf's Magnum Shot when they know timings for 100% hits as fast as possible. Human Bash and FH already pales in comparison to Giant Smash >2x Bash combo. Humans have always been the jack of all trades, master of none.

    FH against bosses w/ reduced prot is and always should be used with Control Bars.

    So, what do I use for Single target? Considering I mostly solo play, I use lance charge and chain impale whenever I can't cbar FH for "eznogi ha press 1 button and not care," and when I'm pressed on time I'd rather use impale/LC. Currently I do 100k crit LC's, r6, no divine lance, no DM, no SS, no RI and I do not have an echo stone w/ a [lance weapon] lance charge damage roll yet. And for Impales, I do 90k crits, r6, no celtic chain, no reforged chain blade, no DM, no SS, no RI.

    My Ele FH is 30k on crits. And the above Lance Charge/Impales are non ele. So.

    Also, no Fierce/Avenger/Creepy Haunted accs. Bring Back Creepy Haunted.

    Edit:
    I also use Firebolt from time to time and those are 40~50k's.
    Hellkaizer wrote: »
    Intimacy wrote: »
    Azurexrin wrote: »
    Intimacy wrote: »
    This is a massive nerf that basically pushes humans further into brioslave territory than they already are. They have NOTHING ELSE that's comparable dps wise to elves or giants.

    I play on all characters, but mostly human and a human player relying on FH for Single Target DPS and not as Brio/trash mob clearing is bad.

    So, what would be the comparable DPS? Nothing realistically, there is no absolute way to outdps an Elf's Magnum Shot when they know timings for 100% hits as fast as possible. Human Bash and FH already pales in comparison to Giant Smash >2x Bash combo. Humans have always been the jack of all trades, master of none.

    FH against bosses w/ reduced prot is and always should be used with Control Bars.

    So, what do I use for Single target? Considering I mostly solo play, I use lance charge and chain impale whenever I can't cbar FH for "eznogi ha press 1 button and not care," and when I'm pressed on time I'd rather use impale/LC. Currently I do 100k crit LC's, r6, no divine lance, no DM, no SS, no RI and I do not have an echo stone w/ a [lance weapon] lance charge damage roll yet. And for Impales, I do 90k crits, r6, no celtic chain, no reforged chain blade, no DM, no SS, no RI.

    My Ele FH is 30k on crits. And the above Lance Charge/Impales are non ele. So.

    Also, no Fierce/Avenger/Creepy Haunted accs. Bring Back Creepy Haunted.

    Edit:
    I also use Firebolt from time to time and those are 40~50k's.




    My elf is close to launching 100k magnum shots without ele. She's also 5k total. Anything humans can do elves or giants can do better. So go on and tell me, what compares to elf or giant dps on a human, what can humans bring to endgame party play? Lance charge isn't sustainable dps and neither is ss+impale, firebolt is also niche.

    Elves use chain and magic better, giants use lances better. Try to answer the question. "What can humans actually do to keep up with elf and giant dps or what can they do better than elf or giant". At endgame they legitimately have final hit, everything else the other two races do better.

    I think you're forgetting that these are numbers, the amount of people actually at the point that their giant/elf is better than most try hard humans is very, very small. I'd even bet that the amount of people with dan 3 mag is minuscule, after 370 ish attempts I finally got it but it was one of the most frustrating things I've ever done in game.

    You don't understand just how wide the power gap is between humans, elves and giants. My human main at 22k total with endgame human gear and capped stats gets completely blown out of the water for damage by my 5k elf. Dan 3 mag isn't hard once you actually learn how to properly do it, 11k points is a consistent score, then you run it against rng 5-10 times and you can get dan 3.

    When you're talking about balance between all 3 races you have to do it talking from an endgame stand point. Before endgame nothing actually matters, but at endgame the power gap is so huge you actually cannot compare humans to elves or giants, human only contribute as brio slaves, a human dpsing is better replaced with an elf or giant.
  • AzurexrinAzurexrin
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    Intimacy wrote: »
    At endgame they legitimately have final hit, everything else the other two races do better.

    No. At endgame we have 350k~1m Lance Charge crits non ele every 5 seconds and 400k crit chain impales every x second without a combo card with SS(this is what's possible in NA). FH is, in my opinion, pure garbage as a "High DPS" skill. FH at its best is AoE DPS when paired with 2h.

    With the buffs coming in G22, I don't understand why this is bad. Mobs only have x-amount of HP and player's damage are only ever going to increase as we see with the incoming passive for 2x dmg that can crit on its own as well as a skill cd reset and skill cd negate oh and at cap +1 piercing and a chara dmg buff. As it stands, Humans are decent and looking at KR's Hall of Fame, humans are the best in Single Target when all possible stacks are available for Lance Charge (which is generally the case in content that matters). FH shouldn't be relied on as the go-to boss killer when humans have other, better options.
    Hellkaizer
  • IntimacyIntimacy
    Mabinogi Rep: 220
    Posts: 10
    Member
    edited November 2, 2018
    Azurexrin wrote: »
    Intimacy wrote: »
    This is a massive nerf that basically pushes humans further into brioslave territory than they already are. They have NOTHING ELSE that's comparable dps wise to elves or giants.

    I play on all characters, but mostly human and a human player relying on FH for Single Target DPS and not as Brio/trash mob clearing is bad.

    So, what would be the comparable DPS? Nothing realistically, there is no absolute way to outdps an Elf's Magnum Shot when they know timings for 100% hits as fast as possible. Human Bash and FH already pales in comparison to Giant Smash >2x Bash combo. Humans have always been the jack of all trades, master of none.

    FH against bosses w/ reduced prot is and always should be used with Control Bars.

    So, what do I use for Single target? Considering I mostly solo play, I use lance charge and chain impale whenever I can't cbar FH for "eznogi ha press 1 button and not care," and when I'm pressed on time I'd rather use impale/LC. Currently I do 100k crit LC's, r6, no divine lance, no DM, no SS, no RI and I do not have an echo stone w/ a [lance weapon] lance charge damage roll yet. And for Impales, I do 90k crits, r6, no celtic chain, no reforged chain blade, no DM, no SS, no RI.

    My Ele FH is 30k on crits. And the above Lance Charge/Impales are non ele. So.

    Also, no Fierce/Avenger/Creepy Haunted accs. Bring Back Creepy Haunted.

    Edit:
    I also use Firebolt from time to time and those are 40~50k's.
    Hellkaizer wrote: »
    Intimacy wrote: »
    Azurexrin wrote: »
    Intimacy wrote: »
    This is a massive nerf that basically pushes humans further into brioslave territory than they already are. They have NOTHING ELSE that's comparable dps wise to elves or giants.

    I play on all characters, but mostly human and a human player relying on FH for Single Target DPS and not as Brio/trash mob clearing is bad.

    So, what would be the comparable DPS? Nothing realistically, there is no absolute way to outdps an Elf's Magnum Shot when they know timings for 100% hits as fast as possible. Human Bash and FH already pales in comparison to Giant Smash >2x Bash combo. Humans have always been the jack of all trades, master of none.

    FH against bosses w/ reduced prot is and always should be used with Control Bars.

    So, what do I use for Single target? Considering I mostly solo play, I use lance charge and chain impale whenever I can't cbar FH for "eznogi ha press 1 button and not care," and when I'm pressed on time I'd rather use impale/LC. Currently I do 100k crit LC's, r6, no divine lance, no DM, no SS, no RI and I do not have an echo stone w/ a [lance weapon] lance charge damage roll yet. And for Impales, I do 90k crits, r6, no celtic chain, no reforged chain blade, no DM, no SS, no RI.

    My Ele FH is 30k on crits. And the above Lance Charge/Impales are non ele. So.

    Also, no Fierce/Avenger/Creepy Haunted accs. Bring Back Creepy Haunted.

    Edit:
    I also use Firebolt from time to time and those are 40~50k's.




    My elf is close to launching 100k magnum shots without ele. She's also 5k total. Anything humans can do elves or giants can do better. So go on and tell me, what compares to elf or giant dps on a human, what can humans bring to endgame party play? Lance charge isn't sustainable dps and neither is ss+impale, firebolt is also niche.

    Elves use chain and magic better, giants use lances better. Try to answer the question. "What can humans actually do to keep up with elf and giant dps or what can they do better than elf or giant". At endgame they legitimately have final hit, everything else the other two races do better.

    I think you're forgetting that these are numbers, the amount of people actually at the point that their giant/elf is better than most try hard humans is very, very small. I'd even bet that the amount of people with dan 3 mag is minuscule, after 370 ish attempts I finally got it but it was one of the most frustrating things I've ever done in game.

    You don't understand just how wide the power gap is between humans, elves and giants. An elf or giant focused on 1 stat can out dps an endgame humans final hit at a pretty low level and anything a human does with anything besides fh, elf or giant does better with the same or less stats anyways.
    My human main at 22k total with endgame human gear and capped stats gets completely blown out of the water for damage by my 5k elf. Dan 3 mag isn't hard once you actually learn how to properly do it, 11k points is a consistent score, then you run it against rng 5-10 times and you can get dan 3.

    When you're talking about balance between all 3 races you have to do it talking from an endgame stand point. Before endgame nothing actually matters, but at endgame the power gap is so huge you actually cannot compare humans to elves or giants, human only contribute as brio slaves, a human dpsing is better replaced with an elf or giant.
    Azurexrin
  • AzurexrinAzurexrin
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    Intimacy wrote: »
    When you're talking about balance between all 3 races you have to do it talking from an endgame stand point. Before endgame nothing actually matters, but at endgame the power gap is so huge you actually cannot compare humans to elves or giants, human only contribute as brio slaves, a human dpsing is better replaced with an elf or giant.

    With how the game is now and in the future, the only time this matters is only in Clobber. In end-game party play, Bosses die in sheer seconds so it really doesn't matter whom has the highest DPS as long as the party has the highest Output they can provide. Which for Humans would be Lance Charge then Impale. Giants would still be using their best Single Target and Elves would be well Mag w/ campfire ofc whenever they can. My point is that humans aren't absolutely useless endgame with an LC on DM'd boss 0 prot being 100k~500k every 5 seconds, and impales at 100k~200k every x second vs FH being like 15k~40k.
    VeylaineHellkaizer
  • VeylaineVeylaine
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,850
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    Member
    Azurexrin wrote: »
    Intimacy wrote: »
    When you're talking about balance between all 3 races you have to do it talking from an endgame stand point. Before endgame nothing actually matters, but at endgame the power gap is so huge you actually cannot compare humans to elves or giants, human only contribute as brio slaves, a human dpsing is better replaced with an elf or giant.

    With how the game is now and in the future, the only time this matters is only in Clobber. In end-game party play, Bosses die in sheer seconds so it really doesn't matter whom has the highest DPS as long as the party has the highest Output they can provide. Which for Humans would be Lance Charge then Impale. Giants would still be using their best Single Target and Elves would be well Mag w/ campfire ofc whenever they can. My point is that humans aren't absolutely useless endgame with an LC on DM'd boss 0 prot being 100k~500k every 5 seconds, and impales at 100k~200k every x second vs FH being like 15k~40k.

    exactly some people need to stop equating the absolute best with adequate practicality. its not necessary to be the best for most of the content in this game.
  • KagaKaga
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    LF> Elf to Giant race change.
    Giants seem way more fun to play.
    MaiaZeoBronzebreak
  • IntimacyIntimacy
    Mabinogi Rep: 220
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    edited November 3, 2018
    Azurexrin wrote: »
    . My point is that humans aren't absolutely useless endgame with an LC on DM'd boss 0 prot being 100k~500k every 5 seconds, and impales at 100k~200k every x second vs FH being like 15k~40k.

    You've never run anything endgame, that right there shows that you're talking without experience. Humans aren't fhing for damage anymore, they are 100% utility with brio. Lance charge may work properly on the sidhe bosses, normal bosses you'd be lucky to break 100k since even with brio shaved prot most endgame bosses still have quite a bit of it. There's also no way you're landing 100-200k impales, those kinds of numbers are sandbag damage when you're given SS DM and Rage impact and a full chain impale set, no one is casually 200king endgame bosses with impale, that seems like you saw something on kr and started talking about it without actually seeing under what conditions it could be done. Meanwhile giant smash/bash and elf mag will actually be launching 100-150k damage and launching it much faster.

    Now, humans can either FH and brio to make every single elf and giant do substantially more damage, which means things die faster, or they can do 100k lance charges every 5 seconds? One option is the stronger option by far. I'd love to see you attempt purification missions without a brio slave.
    Just because humans can hit okay numbers under XYZ conditions, doesn't mean that it's actually worth it, in most cases a brioslave human will make the entire run go faster, because that is their most important contribution to the party. Their damage doesn't matter as long as they can fh with brio. That's the exact issue with endgame humans, no endgame human denies it and they all joke about it. When you're in an endgame guild that actually runs this content daily you tend to get familiar with all the endgame players running stuff.

    It really doesn't look like anyone in this thread knows anything about how endgame content works.
  • HellkaizerHellkaizer
    Mabinogi Rep: 11,305
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    Intimacy wrote: »
    Azurexrin wrote: »
    . My point is that humans aren't absolutely useless endgame with an LC on DM'd boss 0 prot being 100k~500k every 5 seconds, and impales at 100k~200k every x second vs FH being like 15k~40k.

    You've never run anything endgame, that right there shows that you're talking without experience. Humans aren't fhing for damage anymore, they are 100% utility with brio. Lance charge may work properly on the sidhe bosses, normal bosses you'd be lucky to break 100k since even with brio shaved prot most endgame bosses still have quite a bit of it. There's also no way you're landing 100-200k impales, those kinds of numbers are sandbag damage when you're given SS DM and Rage impact and a full chain impale set, no one is casually 200king endgame bosses with impale, that seems like you saw something on kr and started talking about it without actually seeing under what conditions it could be done. Meanwhile giant smash/bash and elf mag will actually be launching 100-150k damage and launching it much faster.

    Now, humans can either FH and brio to make every single elf and giant do substantially more damage, which means things die faster, or they can do 100k lance charges every 5 seconds? One option is the stronger option by far. I'd love to see you attempt purification missions without a brio slave.
    Just because humans can hit okay numbers under XYZ conditions, doesn't mean that it's actually worth it, in most cases a brioslave human will make the entire run go faster, because that is their most important contribution to the party. Their damage doesn't matter as long as they can fh with brio. That's the exact issue with endgame humans, no endgame human denies it and they all joke about it. When you're in an endgame guild that actually runs this content daily you tend to get familiar with all the endgame players running stuff.

    It really doesn't look like anyone in this thread knows anything about how endgame content works.

    Damn dude, someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed. You got any screenshots to back up what you're claiming?
    KagaNeynaVeylaineAlshian
  • IntimacyIntimacy
    Mabinogi Rep: 220
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    Hellkaizer wrote: »

    Damn dude, someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed. You got any screenshots to back up what you're claiming?

    There's nothing required to screenshot with what i've said? Besides maybe elves magging 150k?
  • YuoichiYuoichi
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    edited November 9, 2018
    *rises hand*
    Can Elves get sum removed 2?



    Your comment was edited for the following reason: Inappropriate language. Bypassing the Language filter.
    ZeoAlshian
  • GretaGreta
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    So... Elves are still getting nothing. ROFL, Ok.
    Zeo
  • AzurexrinAzurexrin
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    Intimacy wrote: »
    You've never run anything endgame, that right there shows that you're talking without experience. Humans aren't fhing for damage anymore, they are 100% utility with brio. Lance charge may work properly on the sidhe bosses, normal bosses you'd be lucky to break 100k since even with brio shaved prot most endgame bosses still have quite a bit of it. There's also no way you're landing 100-200k impales, those kinds of numbers are sandbag damage when you're given SS DM and Rage impact and a full chain impale set, no one is casually 200king endgame bosses with impale, that seems like you saw something on kr and started talking about it without actually seeing under what conditions it could be done. Meanwhile giant smash/bash and elf mag will actually be launching 100-150k damage and launching it much faster.

    Now, humans can either FH and brio to make every single elf and giant do substantially more damage, which means things die faster, or they can do 100k lance charges every 5 seconds? One option is the stronger option by far. I'd love to see you attempt purification missions without a brio slave.
    Just because humans can hit okay numbers under XYZ conditions, doesn't mean that it's actually worth it, in most cases a brioslave human will make the entire run go faster, because that is their most important contribution to the party. Their damage doesn't matter as long as they can fh with brio. That's the exact issue with endgame humans, no endgame human denies it and they all joke about it. When you're in an endgame guild that actually runs this content daily you tend to get familiar with all the endgame players running stuff.

    It really doesn't look like anyone in this thread knows anything about how endgame content works.


    Except that I do run endgame content, usually solo. The numbers in that quote were just with Death Mark alone. If we're including stacking RISS which requires a 2nd member and a 3rd member to sandburst in phantasm, at that point it's not worth it, even though it pushes out spicy meme ohko damage on the succubus queen. The same with Tagar and turtle runs, my 100k crit is just at 0 prot, with DM more like 50~60k non crit, 150k~180k crits, and I do proc self Support shots (your general master, stormborne, boh ) for my lance charge, which pushes it to more like 200k~ on crits. 0 Prot Tagar, turtle and golem, 100k non crit Impales no DM/RI/SS, just 0 prot. I don't stack RI, we can both agree that that's a waste of time (until g22 to proc that passive for meme 2m dmg). Stacking DM and SS to a boss (Tagar/turtle/Sidhe/Queen) is honestly doable. Don't get me wrong I do go into parties and those runs are generally 20 seconds (with the weakest humans being the brio slaves), but if an endgame human can push out 60k+ non crit LC's or 100k non crit impales, I don't see why they should use continue to use FH for damage (after using FH to drop prot). Considering we're talking about endgame where the person should have BiS.

    Also, it's unfair, but I do have this atm and still rolling for higher on my freemium combo card for the memes on my human.
    ud4rRcv.png

    And here's an NA human's crit LC with just SS.
    DAjSJP0.png
  • IntimacyIntimacy
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    edited November 3, 2018
    I never commented on lance charges damage, I know exactly what kind of nuke it can be. I also never said humans can't do damage. I did however say there's nothing humans actually bring to the table over an elf or giant besides final hit.

    Giants can lance charge better, elves can impale better and anything a human can do will get overshadowed by either of those two races. Humans cannot pump out the dps required to keep up with elves or giants. There is absolutely no arguing that. Humans CAN function, but there's no actual reason to bring humans along besides 1. Brio slaves. 2. There's not enough elves or giants.

    Too many humans in a party will slow down dps to the point it's no longer a 30 second run. Humans are basically there to be brio slaves. Anything extra they do is secondary to that.
    Azurexrin
  • MaiaMaia
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    Kaga wrote: »
    LF> Elf to Giant race change.
    Giants seem way more fun to play.

    10000% agree. I would change race in a heart beat. Granted I'm human and have wanted to switch for a while lol Humans are slow and boring.
    BronzebreakKaga
  • ZeoZeo
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    I agree with what others are saying... race change feature when? I'd gladly switch from an elf to a giant now considering that elves continue to get nothing like usual. xD
    Kaga
  • AlshianAlshian
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    I honestly think elves had recently got something...like chains~ o 3o

    Even tho its for all races xD but yea they need something too :< as well as hoomans.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    Honestly, there is so much damage obsession here that I do not at all understand. It seems we are jerking ourselves off, or complaining about disparities that are not not at all significant in any content, and only functions as an excuse to post numbers.

    KagaVeylaineXiokunImaizumi
  • HellkaizerHellkaizer
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    Honestly, there is so much damage obsession here that I do not at all understand. It seems we are jerking ourselves off, or complaining about disparities that are not not at all significant in any content, and only functions as an excuse to post numbers.

    A lot of people like to play that way, no harm in that.
    What intimacy is saying is actually accurate, wholly and entirely. However, there's a very small amount of people that still play in NA where something like this even matters.