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Guild Wars Exploit

xBernkastelxxBernkastelx
Mabinogi Rep: 1,405
Posts: 59
Member
in General Chat
This week on Tarlach we ran into an exploit that can be used in guild wars that makes recruiting players and having a fair competition not really possible. One of the enemy guilds tried to join our guild with an alt pretending to be a newer player. In guild wars, at exactly 8pm EST on saturday and sunday, you talk to duncan to create a party of 20 which your guild can join and then you enter. The problem with this is that ANYONE of ANY RANK in the guild can do this. That means that if a random lvl 100 or 1000 who isn't meant to be doing guild wars opens the party, they can enter instantly without their guild joining. The first person to make the party is the leader, not the guild leader or officer. They can even LEAVE or just NOT ENTER at all and no one else in the guild can do anything about it. They can even do this on another channel away from the rest of the guild and run off with it.

So when an enemy guild that wasn't willing to try to win fairly started attempting to use this exploit to force themselves to win it makes enjoying the content and having a good competition impossible. Furthermore it makes any guild interested in competing really afraid to take any new recruits, because any new player might be an alt or someone who is working for another guild. I think this is a major oversight by Nexon and should be patched out. I think only SENIOR MEMBERS and above should be capable of creating or managing the party, and that the party should be passed to the guild leader or officer if they join optimally. Having a brand new fresh recruit able to completely destroy the integrity of the competition makes every new recruit seem like a possible Trojan horse.

I think people should submit tickets to Nexon to have this patched or it will plague every server before long and create unhealthy competition. Simply making it so only senior members or above can create the party leaves enough members capable of starting it should the leader/officer be absent, but it ALSO gives an actual meaning to the otherwise meaningless roles within a guild.
OmbrenoirHDLink
  1. Do you think this is a problem that should be patched by Nexon?52 votes
    1. Yes
       85% (44 votes)
    2. No
       15% (8 votes)

Comments

  • FayeKaibaFayeKaiba
    Mabinogi Rep: 10,670
    Posts: 886
    Member
    edited November 20, 2018
    This is not an exploit because the person was in your guild and they joined the guild war party. Limiting your members to being high ranked and strong to the party only is a fast track to having people not want to be in your guild. This was just a person being a bad sport.
  • FoodfoodfoodFoodfoodfood
    Mabinogi Rep: 980
    Posts: 51
    Member
    edited November 20, 2018
    FayeKaiba wrote: »
    This is not an exploit because the person was in your guild and they joined the guild war party. Limiting your members to being high ranked and strong to the party only is a fast track to having people not want to be in your guild. This was just a person being a bad sport.

    I don't think you understood what this post is saying. The OP is arguing to preserve the ability to recruit new players, whatever their caliber, not just strong players. But because any player is allowed to make the guild war party, a new, unknown player can be an enemy spy attempting to sabotage the integrity of the competition by making the party and running away or going in by himself to prevent an entire guild from participating. Do you participate in guild wars to know how it works? A party must be made to bring in the participants, but at the moment anyone can make that party and deny a guild from entering.

    I think there's a clear distinction between a "bad sport" and an enemy guild member attempting to join the winning guild for the sole purpose of sabotaging the ability to join the event.
    LiberateBuffalosTheNyanCat
  • BobbioBobbio
    Mabinogi Rep: 750
    Posts: 62
    Member
    that's pretty dumb if that's the case, should only be restricted to guild leaders and officers.
    FoodfoodfoodHDLink
  • XCalibieXCalibie
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,415
    Posts: 114
    Member
    At the very least, creation of the Guild War Party should not be available to Junior members of the guild.

    Either the system needs a small change to only allow Seniors, Officers, and Leaders to create the party,
    or change the Guild UI to include a text field in which you can enter the names of those who are allowed to create the party.
    Of course there would be no restrictions on who could -join- the party, as long as they are members of the Guild.

    Guild War also costs Gold and Guild Points, and those resources should not be squandered randomly.
    LiberatepawcalypseBuffalos
  • TenrainTenrain
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,010
    Posts: 15
    Member
    If this isn't solved I feel like participating guilds are going to begin kicking members, and become suspicious of one another. Which would take all of the fun out of the battles. Waiting a week til the battles a long time, and not something you want being screwed up at the last second. I'm definitely for having senior members being able to start the party.
  • LaossLaoss
    Mabinogi Rep: 510
    Posts: 9
    Member
    I'm surprised this issue hasn't been discovered already by the overseas servers. But yeah, this definitely seems like a huge oversight to allow anyone to start the party and enter. Either only allow senior members to start the party or allow people to continue joining until the guild war starts (wouldn't be a perfect solution since the alt could steal one of the 20 spots, but it's better than nothing).

    This might be something to add to the "suggestions" section of the forum.
  • AlshianAlshian
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,755
    Posts: 1,230
    Member
    An update that id thought to be cool and fun to be another Nexoned content...
  • ArjuneArjune
    Mabinogi Rep: 16,890
    Posts: 1,752
    Member
    edited November 20, 2018
    FayeKaiba wrote: »
    This is not an exploit because the person was in your guild and they joined the guild war party. Limiting your members to being high ranked and strong to the party only is a fast track to having people not want to be in your guild. This was just a person being a bad sport.

    WHEW that's a molten spicy hot take right there.... I think maybe you shoulda thought your reply out more before you posted it because jeez did you miss the point. They didn't simply join the guild war party they made the party and then hijacked it. that absolutely should not be allowed. I honestly don't think you read past the first few sentences of the thread
    AlshianLiberateBuffalos
  • AlshianAlshian
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,755
    Posts: 1,230
    Member
    edited November 20, 2018
    FayeKaiba wrote: »
    This is not an exploit because the person was in your guild and they joined the guild war party. Limiting your members to being high ranked and strong to the party only is a fast track to having people not want to be in your guild. This was just a person being a bad sport.

    Your a fool for not reading closely

    The OP had stated that this is an exploit solely because ANYONE of the JOINED GUILD MEMBER can make the party for the guild war MEANING a player who JUST JOINED THE GUILD can make a guild war party and hog it away by hiding somewhere PREVENTING OTHER LEGIT GUILD MEMBERS from making the guild war party because another ALREADY EXIST IN THE GUILD.

    This is an exploit from a spy from another guild to prevent other guilds from joining the war making them win by default or higher chances of winning.

    This will force many guilds who like to take part of the war from allowing any new players into the guild because they won't know if its a spy from another guild or not, even if they said they are new for it could just be an alt of a not so very new player.

    This is a problem that is needed to be solved else the fear of new members joining a guild to prevent them from guild war will make them not allow any new members in the guild anymore.

    Again this is an exploit no matter how you see it.

    I believe there should be a new rank for trusted members where new players who just joined the guild would have no rank unless they stay long enough to convince the leader to make them legit members of the guild. Or give these players 3~7 days to stay in the guild to be able to create a guild war. Of course they can still do guild wars IF they join an existing party of older guild members. This way the exploit can be managed better while not harming legit new members from doing guild wars if the guild allows them.
    Larbac
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,125
    Posts: 661
    Member
    edited November 20, 2018
    Arjune wrote: »
    FayeKaiba wrote: »
    This is not an exploit because the person was in your guild and they joined the guild war party. Limiting your members to being high ranked and strong to the party only is a fast track to having people not want to be in your guild. This was just a person being a bad sport.

    WHEW that's a molten spicy hot take right there.... I think maybe you shoulda thought your reply out more before you posted it because jeez did you miss the point. They didn't simply join the guild war party they made the party and then hijacked it. that absolutely should not be allowed. I honestly don't think you read past the first few sentences of the thread

    Just to add to this, lets look at it as an analogy. We have Company A and Company B, they are competing for a product. Company B has one of its in employees join Company A and then has them set up a top level meeting where employee from Company B and Company B are with a customer. Employee from Company B is representing Company A, and Company B is representing themselves. Employee from Company B proceeds to drop his pants and drop a 5lb chocolate mud baby on the customer's desk. Company B gets the deal instead of Company A.

    The exploit is that ANY newly invited member of the guild can initiate the quest. OP is arguing that this should not be. Only senior guild members should be allowed to start one. Also being a senior member of a guild does not automatically mean that person is strong combat wise, it just means that the leaders felt they were trust worthy enough to be called a senior member over normal members. The simple fact is that prospective guilds that wish to engage in taking Dunby or Tir are less willing to sign on new members for fear of sabotage by another guild. The senior member requirement would allow a guild to sign on as many recruits as it wants without the worry that one of them will sabotage them for the quest. For the record, the officer or leader has the option to "promote" any guild member to senior status, there's very little benefits other being called a senior, and the only requirement is that the leader promotes them or not. This has NOTHING to do with power, or anything.
    BlissfulkillVeylaineLiberate
  • xBernkastelxxBernkastelx
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,405
    Posts: 59
    Member
    edited November 20, 2018
    To clarify, we as a guild that wish to participate in guild wars and win it, want to be able to invite as many people as possible to the guild to enjoy the benefits. Since taking Tir for instance, my guild has been completely open borders and letting as many players in as possible to enjoy the benefits(Even players who are way too weak to help us win the wars in the first place), but upon realizing enemy guilds wanted to cheat using this exploit it becomes much much harder to let "anyone" in because its very easy to make a new account and pretend to be a new player just to gain access to the guild and sabotage it despite being even under 1k total.
  • GretaGreta
    Mabinogi Rep: 51,765
    Posts: 6,975
    Member
    Why would anyone recruit random people to their guild in the first place... It just never works out in my opinion.
    Gaby5011kapapa
  • TamboonTamboon
    Mabinogi Rep: 565
    Posts: 10
    Member
    Greta wrote: »
    Why would anyone recruit random people to their guild in the first place... It just never works out in my opinion.

    Well if you read the post above you, you can see one pretty good reason.
  • KatherzKatherz
    Mabinogi Rep: 21,545
    Posts: 1,593
    Member
    Hey guys, please submit a support ticket on the situation and we will check it out. Be sure to provide the name of the Alt character that is causing issues along with any pictures. Thanks!

    https://support-mabinogi.nexon.net/hc/en-us
    VeylaineLiberateCrimsọnLeinei
  • CraftycrabsCraftycrabs
    Mabinogi Rep: 220
    Posts: 4
    Member
    My guild wanted to join, but the guild that keeps winning has been paying people off in various ways to help them win from what I've heard :( My guildies put in the money to participate because it looks fun, but idk if we're even going to show up if the guild battles are getting even worse on Tarlach
    kapapa
  • Momma_SophieMomma_Sophie
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,575
    Posts: 290
    Member
    Bern, you asked me to get involved, no regrets:
    Laoss wrote: »
    I'm surprised this issue hasn't been discovered already by the overseas servers. But yeah, this definitely seems like a huge oversight to allow anyone to start the party and enter. Either only allow senior members to start the party or allow people to continue joining until the guild war starts (wouldn't be a perfect solution since the alt could steal one of the 20 spots, but it's better than nothing).

    This might be something to add to the "suggestions" section of the forum.

    The reason why other servers in other countries are not having this issue is probably because they know better than to just recruit anybody on basis of no understanding whatsoever of the person's motives.

    Bern, there is are a variety of distinct reasons as to why I no longer deal with guilds and this is a major one:
    Guilds have gotten to a point where people just allow anyone to join without vetting them to make sure they share similar goals and purposes, which causes guilds to have no meaning behind them and thus open up the inherent weaknesses to this crisis you now face.
    What I mean by this is that allowing random players you know nothing about to join your guild -- if only for the sake of receiving benefits that they did not even earn -- of course is going to leave you all susceptible to being taken advantage of. This is nothing more than the exact, logical results of what your guild policy has allowed.
    Tamboon wrote: »
    Greta wrote: »
    Why would anyone recruit random people to their guild in the first place... It just never works out in my opinion.

    Well if you read the post above you, you can see one pretty good reason.

    This is not Nexon's problem that their guild policy has caused them this issue. The solution is to tighten up their guild security by being more meticulous in learning about who they let in and who has been in there. Nexon can punish the account responsible, but that will not stop it from happening again. Changing the function of the Guild Wars on basis of personal conflicts may be convenient to your guild, but not everyone else's.
    ---
    The whole idea of "we want everyone to have what we have" is an idea I support.
    The methodology and philosophy behind how it goes about being brought to reality is where this problem lies.
    The truth is that not everyone has your best interest at heart and not everyone deserves what you have because not everyone is willing to do what you did to get what you have. Yes, this may alienate some people, but that is due to their choices and not yours. Until this is realized, your problem will continue to exist unless Nexon decides to change the functionality of the Guild Wars.

    Would I support it if they did? Neither for or against. If I owned my own guild and participated in the Wars, this would never have been a problem because I make sure I know who is entering my guild, whether or not they share my goals, and what their motives are.

    Sophie out.

    Gretakapapa
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 64,210
    Posts: 8,868
    Member
    edited November 20, 2018
    Yeah something isn't right, week after week it's the same two guilds. Every, single, week. I once tried to join that dunbarton guild, but they wouldn't approve my application. I eventually found out it was because certain people knew I reported other players for illegal activity. So when the guild officer says some people are "uncomfortable" with me being in the guild; it means they are possibly doing something against the ToS and if they let me join I would find out and potentially report them.

    They were afraid of me.

    That's what I have concluded and what another player from the guild told me. I've already submitted a ticket on the matter, these guilds need to be investigated carefully. You can call me butthurt all you want, but that doesn't negate that something is not right.

    :|

    Also I do agree the only ones who be able to initiate a guild wars party should only be senior members, officers, and leaders. Those members rally up the guild members anyway for guild activities. If another member in the guild wants to participate, all they have to do is ask. Most leaders and upper members are obliging, at least in my guild and other guilds I know.
  • HealingGibbyHealingGibby
    Mabinogi Rep: 625
    Posts: 16
    Member
    Gaea wrote: »
    Yeah something isn't right, week after week it's the same two guilds. Every, single, week. I once tried to join that dunbarton guild, but they wouldn't approve my application. I eventually found out it was because certain people knew I reported other players for illegal activity. So when the guild officer says some people are "uncomfortable" with me being in the guild; it means they are possibly doing something against the ToS and if they let me join I would find out and potentially report them.

    They were afraid of me.

    That's what I have concluded and what another player from the guild told me. I've already submitted a ticket on the matter, these guilds need to be investigated carefully. Because something is not right.

    :|

    A good portion of this was fear mongering and provides nothing to op's concerns.

    Anyway, I do feel that both careful vetting of recruits and more role based features for guilds can go a long way to rectify this.
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 64,210
    Posts: 8,868
    Member
    (I realize this and that's why I updated my comment)
  • FoodfoodfoodFoodfoodfood
    Mabinogi Rep: 980
    Posts: 51
    Member
    Bern, you asked me to get involved, no regrets:
    Laoss wrote: »
    I'm surprised this issue hasn't been discovered already by the overseas servers. But yeah, this definitely seems like a huge oversight to allow anyone to start the party and enter. Either only allow senior members to start the party or allow people to continue joining until the guild war starts (wouldn't be a perfect solution since the alt could steal one of the 20 spots, but it's better than nothing).

    This might be something to add to the "suggestions" section of the forum.

    The reason why other servers in other countries are not having this issue is probably because they know better than to just recruit anybody on basis of no understanding whatsoever of the person's motives.

    Bern, there is are a variety of distinct reasons as to why I no longer deal with guilds and this is a major one:
    Guilds have gotten to a point where people just allow anyone to join without vetting them to make sure they share similar goals and purposes, which causes guilds to have no meaning behind them and thus open up the inherent weaknesses to this crisis you now face.
    What I mean by this is that allowing random players you know nothing about to join your guild -- if only for the sake of receiving benefits that they did not even earn -- of course is going to leave you all susceptible to being taken advantage of. This is nothing more than the exact, logical results of what your guild policy has allowed.
    Tamboon wrote: »
    Greta wrote: »
    Why would anyone recruit random people to their guild in the first place... It just never works out in my opinion.

    Well if you read the post above you, you can see one pretty good reason.

    This is not Nexon's problem that their guild policy has caused them this issue. The solution is to tighten up their guild security by being more meticulous in learning about who they let in and who has been in there. Nexon can punish the account responsible, but that will not stop it from happening again. Changing the function of the Guild Wars on basis of personal conflicts may be convenient to your guild, but not everyone else's.
    ---
    The whole idea of "we want everyone to have what we have" is an idea I support.
    The methodology and philosophy behind how it goes about being brought to reality is where this problem lies.
    The truth is that not everyone has your best interest at heart and not everyone deserves what you have because not everyone is willing to do what you did to get what you have. Yes, this may alienate some people, but that is due to their choices and not yours. Until this is realized, your problem will continue to exist unless Nexon decides to change the functionality of the Guild Wars.

    Would I support it if they did? Neither for or against. If I owned my own guild and participated in the Wars, this would never have been a problem because I make sure I know who is entering my guild, whether or not they share my goals, and what their motives are.

    Sophie out.

    I'm not sure why anything Bern has said leads you to believe that our guild has not been vetting new players. In fact, we were successful in identifying the perpetrator and kicked his alt. Nexon can stop this from happening by very easily upping the requirement to make the guild war party be a Senior, Officer, or Leader. No one is asking that Nexon police the entire server for spies. Have you considered that maybe most guilds just don't know about this? That most guilds just assume that only the Leader or Officer can make the party? Because that is precisely what most guild leaders I've talked to thought, no regular members have tried making the party in their guilds.

    You say that you support helping people and sharing what the benefits are, but at the same time you say that guilds should be some kind of elitist club that excludes new, up and coming players. The reality is that you can't police everyone in your guild, that enemy guilds can even bribe a less devote player to sabotage. If a guild decides to be exclusive, paranoid, and extremely unwilling to give no-name players a chance, THAT is the most alienating action a guild can make. I don't think people should be required to go through extensive background checks in a video game.

    You seem to think that this is a functionality change that would only benefit the winning guild, but why is that? Wouldn't, logically, all guilds become safer by preventing new, junior members from making the guild war party?
This discussion has been closed.