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Why is the tutorial so damn garbage?

BanazaiSabreBanazaiSabre
Mabinogi Rep: 1,955
Posts: 109
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in Feedback and Suggestions
i was talking with someone the other day about the tutorial material available. i started a newer character to have a wander around alexina (since i still had cards from the old card rebirth system) and the tutorial is so mindnumbingly boring i cant belive any new players start.
i dont know all the details, but even then, people have to do the missions from the "tutorial board" which are even more mind numbing, making you repeat the same sequences up to 3 times like your starting your first year of kindergarden.

"ok now magnum the tutorial dummy that does nothing but use defence" that one in particullar is realll annoying. and its not like you can use any other arrow skills in that tutorial, they all do 1 damage even if it dosnt use defence on the blow. just. wow.
im not an experienced archer since i primarly play giant, but are people seriously using magnum on defence?

Not to mention how segmented the tutorial system is. you start off being sent to tin outside the outskirts of tir somewhere, then warped to vales, then told to go to tir by krug. i can just image seeing the snowy village of vales then being instantly told to leave by the krug. i get it that they wanted to get "all the races to go down the same training" but it really didnt have to be so. i recall getting most of my skills and training from the npcs in vales. Even if i did have to stomp foxs and throw javelins at them.

but frankly the tutorial boards need to go. those are awful. i dont know a single person who enjoyed these, or found practical use for a fair bit of it.
THICCthighssavelivesSherrihappyx2055BronzebreakJazmynBlissfulkillAsuriel

Comments

  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
    Mabinogi Rep: 8,660
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    All I have to say is this GIF. There's really not much else I can use to explain it.
    I mean really, in retrospect, it probably was a bit rushed, and not at all reviewed for how the system would age.
    HarmlessAptBluegill-small.gif
    KensamaofmariSherriAsurielTropa
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,125
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    Member
    To be fair all of the tutorials can be skipped be desired. They are far better than the old days where Duncan basically hands you a basic sword with a cute loli spirit and then spartan kicks you off his hill to start your adventures.
    Bronzebreak
  • IAAWIAAW
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,285
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    GTCvActium wrote: »
    To be fair all of the tutorials can be skipped be desired. They are far better than the old days where Duncan basically hands you a basic sword with a cute loli spirit and then spartan kicks you off his hill to start your adventures.

    Ironically I think there are more people nowadays who would prefer that kind of start.
    JazmynSherri
  • JazmynJazmyn
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,595
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    IAAW wrote: »
    GTCvActium wrote: »
    To be fair all of the tutorials can be skipped be desired. They are far better than the old days where Duncan basically hands you a basic sword with a cute loli spirit and then spartan kicks you off his hill to start your adventures.

    Ironically I think there are more people nowadays who would prefer that kind of start.

    Agreed. When I watched when my husband joined, all of the tutorials seemed so.... I don't know.... they seemed like a big bundle of mess.

    Creating a character, talking to Duncan, introducing yourself to a few of the towns people and being sent on your G1 quest (eliminate random other generations popping in too) is how I think they should have kept it. Maybe, the quests to learn skills should be more thorough with their NPC's instead of throwing them on an easy to use quest board with a grindy, and already mentioned, childish way of teaching.
    Asuriel
  • AsurielAsuriel
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    GTCvActium wrote: »
    To be fair all of the tutorials can be skipped be desired. They are far better than the old days where Duncan basically hands you a basic sword with a cute loli spirit and then spartan kicks you off his hill to start your adventures.

    EXCUSE YOU, but I personally miss that lolli sprite of a spirit that nobody talks about anymore. Eiry was the bomb and I want her back! Lmao.

    But, in all honesty, I do agree. While the OP is right about the tutorial being mind numbing, they give you three free pets - even if two have no inventories, which should be revamped for everyone who has those noob pets because new players tend to save EVERYTHING and have no room, but I digress - which when we first started out.. as older players, we got nothing but the weapon and then had to fend for ourselves.
  • BanazaiSabreBanazaiSabre
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,955
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    speak for yourself, i remember using many free tree mauls when giants first came. so many trees, so many dead physis foxs. Frankly i just hate how the tutorial takes me out of vales now.
  • KerowynKerowyn
    Mabinogi Rep: 710
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    Miruha wrote: »
    EXCUSE YOU, but I personally miss that lolli sprite of a spirit that nobody talks about anymore. Eiry was the bomb and I want her back! Lmao.

    I agree! ♥♥♥ Eiry ♥♥♥ She was a little help back then, too when I was "Spartan kicked off the hill."
  • THICCthighssavelivesTHICCthighssavelives
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,855
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    edited September 25, 2018
    I never realized how much the experience of the game used to be unified, or consciously directed so that all the parts worked well together.

    A good example is the old early game content for giants. https://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Beginner_Quests_(Giant_Physis) Giants were expected to stay in Vales and the surrounding areas for a while. New Giant characters received 'Descendant of the Giants' title from Krug, the Giant King, to help them survive. They also received Krug's Blessing, a buff that works as long as they stayed in Physis or until they died. When they did die they had to go to Krug to retrieve their items, and guess what... they got Krugs Blessing again by talking to him. It all worked synergistically.

    Vales was made for newb Giants. By hitting certain nearby trees they received a decent and interesting giant-only weapon. Giants could receive all basic skills through giant-specific quests, dialogue, and books available in or near Vales. (But I see they got sent to Tin to learn combat, it really should've been a dedicated giant combat trainer in Vales, oh well). Even certain magic and life skills, like meditation, could be learned in Vales. According to wiki, giants received quests that took them into Par ruins or had them hunt Physis wildlife, and the rewards included headgear, gloves, boots, and weapons. So I imagine for Giants, Vales became their hometown and training grounds, and they moved on to Uladh when they were ready.


    Contrast that to the current early game content for giants, which is schizophrenic and cobbled together from old quests. It yanks players back and forth between Uladh and Physis too much: Duncan welcomes you, then you meet Krug for 5 minutes, then back to Uladh, then you reach a certain level or age milestone and you go to Vales to get congratulated by the Giant NPCs even though you have no sentimental or practical connection to Vales because your early game was entirely in Uladh. Once that's done there's no reason to stick around, so it's back to Uladh right away.

    I wish the Giant early game would make up it's mind whether it wants to be entirely in Physis or entirely in Uladh. If the giant early game were entirely in Physis, then I could easily see Lorna and Pan's tutorial taking place in Physis, with them wearing winter gear and training you near Vales. If, however, the early game took place entirely in Uladh (no side-trips to Krug or Vales at all, with age and level milestone quests handled by Pan), then it would turn Vales into a sort of racial homeland that all giants would visit later in their game life. I imagine it like a pilgrimage to learn about your people and get some mid-game race specific skills and story content.
  • PanPan
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    The best tutorial is no tutorial.
  • BanazaiSabreBanazaiSabre
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,955
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    "lets fix the houses in vales so they dont change direction and get buried in the snow depending how the player moves toward the houses".
    "are we gonna add anything to them afterwards?"
    "Nah. Were also gonna make it so giants have no reason to be in vales longer then 5minutes later, and pretend the houses dont exsist again".
    i cant be the only one to remember the old houses in vales. those were funny. they didnt even have proper clipping.
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    Pan wrote: »
    The best tutorial is no tutorial.

    Best tutorial was Eiry.
  • ErorservErorserv
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    edited September 25, 2018
    This tutorial is indeed trash. I believe players should figure things out for themselves and access help at their discretion. It currently railroads the player through a conglomerate of information which would either leave them bored or confused by the end of it.

    It seems they put all of their minimal effort in trying to educate the player that they actually forgot to make it fun.
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
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    Erorserv wrote: »
    This tutorial is indeed trash. I believe players should figure things out for themselves and access help at their discretion. It currently railroads the player through a conglomerate of information which would either leave them bored or confused by the end of it.

    It seems they put all of their minimal effort in trying to educate the player that they actually forgot to make it fun.

    Well again, its skippable. There are people that need the tutorial to learn things that might not happen. Plus we look at the tutorials as people that have experience with the game already so they feel a lot more mind numbing to us. For someone getting into the game, the tutorial provide a structured learning curve that eases the player into the staggering amount of information they are required to have. There's always a need for a tutorial, and if the tutorial is boring for older players, than it just means that it's doing it job well. It's providing information that older players know and that newer players NEED to know.
  • ErorservErorserv
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    edited September 26, 2018
    GTCvActium wrote: »
    Erorserv wrote: »
    This tutorial is indeed trash. I believe players should figure things out for themselves and access help at their discretion. It currently railroads the player through a conglomerate of information which would either leave them bored or confused by the end of it.

    It seems they put all of their minimal effort in trying to educate the player that they actually forgot to make it fun.

    Well again, its skippable. There are people that need the tutorial to learn things that might not happen. Plus we look at the tutorials as people that have experience with the game already so they feel a lot more mind numbing to us. For someone getting into the game, the tutorial provide a structured learning curve that eases the player into the staggering amount of information they are required to have. There's always a need for a tutorial, and if the tutorial is boring for older players, than it just means that it's doing it job well. It's providing information that older players know and that newer players NEED to know.

    The day before writing that, I introduced my friend to Mabi. I watch him play through the tutorial through screenshare. My comment was written from was observed, not my own personal experience.

    It was a mind numbing experience for my friend too.
    GTCvActium wrote: »
    There's always a need for a tutorial, and if the tutorial is boring for older players, than it just means that it's doing it job well.

    If it's boring for veterans, that doesn't make it a good tutorial. It just means theres every chance it will bore the new players aswell. It means it isn't engaging.
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
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    Erorserv wrote: »

    It was a mind numbing experience for my friend too.
    GTCvActium wrote: »
    There's always a need for a tutorial, and if the tutorial is boring for older players, than it just means that it's doing it job well.

    If it's boring for veterans, that doesn't make it a good tutorial. It just means theres every chance it will bore the new players aswell. It means it isn't engaging.

    As a veteran you'll have almost all of the knowledge they are presenting to you. The issue is that Mabi has many many changes and mechanics introduced. To a player that has played through the introductions of these mechanics (sometimes even base level mechanics like the Genesis Update) they present seems obvious and not needed. This is why tutorials feel slow, for someone that has an earnest desire to learn about the mechanics, they are fed at a pace that anyone can pick up. And once again, its designed for the lowest common denominator, players that need the slow pace and spoon fed information to understand how to play the game. If you're one of the people that knows how to pick up on the mechanics, then good, skip the thing. The option is there, it has always been there. Just because it feels slow to you doesn't mean its slow to other people. From my experience the tutorial does what it needed to do, introduce and explain the various aspects of the game. Provide examples and a chance for the beginner to experiment and test out said mechanics. If you wish to play blindingly and learn along the way, then once again, SKIP THE TUTORIAL. If you play through the tutorial, then do so with the earnest mindset that you are going to LEARN something from it.
  • THICCthighssavelivesTHICCthighssavelives
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    I remember playing through the Lorna and Pan intro plus the Tin combat training and talent preview thing. Even as a new player I felt it was slow, especially Tin's Combat Training. He takes ages to explain the skills, then interrupts his own lecture multiple times to have you try each skill, one by one, on enemies spread out far away. Then he makes you take a damn quiz (or two?) near the end, and STILL you're not done. Yes, I was earnestly trying to learn the basics, but there's a point where "thorough" becomes "excessive." There was also a warning that I could lose out on rewards if I skipped the tutorial, so I sure as heck didn't want to skip it.

    The Lorna and Pan intro in the forest field was OK, but I felt they fragmented the dialogue too much. Same problem with the Festia intro quest where they make you talk to Tia like 10 times to advance the quest. Was that really necessary?

    Tin's talent preview is a neat concept. It feels more like a showcase of the game's neat talents, made to impress new players with awesome skills, rather than an honest attempt to help a newbie choose their very FIRST talent (since that is mostly inconsequential. they'll be changing talents back and forth almost every day or just stick to combat). I really feel Tin's talent preview should be a permanent (optional) part of the rebirth process, somewhere in the talent selection part.
    Jazmyn
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    I like the beginner tutorials from back then.
    Back when they made you go to school and learn stuff and then led you with a goof process on how to train and develop skills.
    I don't see that anymore, the process. With new skills and talents, and overall the current system, there's no learning process.
    I think that needs to be changed.
    JazmynBronzebreak