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Bring Back The Gypsy Talent Title

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  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    Eralea wrote: »
    Tbh I don't see much chance of Nexon changing it back. Should they bring back a title that offends a minority just because the majority doesn't view it as being offensive? It wouldn't look very professional if they flip-flopped on this one.

    For one, why would anyone who pops into a fantasy world (who would like to embrace the culture of a gypsy) even if it's via a NPC's side story, want to see that word gone?
    By erasing gypsy, you erase not just a name for more than just a race, but an entire culture of nomads who proudly embrace(d) the wanderer lifestyle.
    Gypsies have been known as fortune tellers, pottery repairers, and so very many positive things.
    And yet people are offended through associating the term with the negative interactions. Interactions which happened so very many years ago.
    Nexon is not responsible for those types of misunderstandings, nor were they around to witness or encourage that.
    However, they can change that negative association by turning The Bard Camp into a more focused side quest experience on the struggles and life of not just one, but all the Bard Camp NPCs.


    They're not a completely nomadic tribe. There are many trying to settle down, but it's political systems that force them to move. I would say they should care if their name is being used for business purposes, but they're not going to see any benefit from it.

    The lack of profitability is precisely why they should stay out of it.
    If anything, Nexon could have reached out to them instead, and asked them if they could set up a website in order to tell the story of as many tribes as possible.
    While they are nomads, and this is a world of technology, the only way they can make money is by setting up some sort of shop.
    That's just how life always is. Adaptation and survival, and nomadic lifestyle is no exception to that rule, just as a business who likewise cannot adapt to changing trends.

    If they haven't joined another country as officially their citizens, they're stateless without official representation. Who would you reach out to? Go contact every single person and conduct a poll? that's not feasible.
    Eralea wrote: »
    I’d derank dual guns and be an Expert American

    Taking suggestions on what I should do with my newfound expertise in Americana

    You sure you don't want a "Yakuza" title instead? I hear that culture is popular in anime, at least.

    "the one who made America Great Again." for luls
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
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    edited August 19, 2019
    If they haven't joined another country as officially their citizens, they're stateless without official representation. Who would you reach out to? Go contact every single person and conduct a poll? that's not feasible.
    Eralea wrote: »
    I’d derank dual guns and be an Expert American

    Taking suggestions on what I should do with my newfound expertise in Americana

    You sure you don't want a "Yakuza" title instead? I hear that culture is popular in anime, at least.

    "the one who made America Great Again." for luls

    Easy:
    Remain a nomad, because no one cares about you, since you're not their citizen.
    That's the way countries have historically been anyways.
    So why's it suddenly a problem now? Even if nomads are tired of the lifestyle, they chose that life in the first place.
    But essentially, if you can't contact a Romani about cultural appropriation of "gypsy," then yeah, you gotta work for your poll.

    But yeah, no... MAGA has so much outrage culture right now, that it'll be a worse shot in the foot for Nexon.
    (While one could say it's patriotic, it's on a vastly different level than a "gypsy" title.)
    They already have bad press release for rigging loot box rates in KR, and offices shutting down in NA, so why not keep themselves safe from the press?
    (Despite the dictionary proving gypsy to not be the first definition for representing a Romani nomad as they specifically "complain.")

  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    If they haven't joined another country as officially their citizens, they're stateless without official representation. Who would you reach out to? Go contact every single person and conduct a poll? that's not feasible.
    Eralea wrote: »
    I’d derank dual guns and be an Expert American

    Taking suggestions on what I should do with my newfound expertise in Americana

    You sure you don't want a "Yakuza" title instead? I hear that culture is popular in anime, at least.

    "the one who made America Great Again." for luls

    Easy:
    Remain a nomad, because no one cares about you, since you're not their citizen.
    That's the way countries have historically been anyways.
    So why's it suddenly a problem now? Even if nomads are tired of the lifestyle, they chose that life in the first place.
    But essentially, if you can't contact a Romani about cultural appropriation of "gypsy," then yeah, you gotta work for your poll.

    But yeah, no... MAGA has so much outrage culture right now, that it'll be a worse shot in the foot for Nexon.
    (While one could say it's patriotic, it's on a vastly different level than a "gypsy" title.)
    They already have bad press release for rigging loot box rates in KR, and offices shutting down in NA, so why not keep themselves safe from the press?
    (Despite the dictionary proving gypsy to not be the first definition for representing a Romani nomad as they specifically "complain.")

    In the modern world, they're nomads because they want to. It's because of discrimination.

    I'm sure you know that the maga comment was a joke. ;)
    Darkpixie99
  • DanievictriaDanievictria
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    Eralea wrote: »
    Okay when I came into this thread I had a fairly neutral viewpoint on the use of “gypsy” because a part of me still filed the word under “things you do”, not “things you are”.

    But the more I read your posts, the more I realise that this word refers to an actual ethnic group and their culture, and reeeeaaally shouldn’t be placed alongside occupational titles like “Artisan”, “Hawker”, Black Magician” etc.

    No other talent titles are ethnicities. There are no Master Jews or Seasoned Bavarians or Wise Cherokee running around in the game. It’s super weird that we had “Gypsy” for so long.

    It’s also weird that you’ve managed to convince me of the exact opposite thing you’re advocating for but seriously. This is a race of people. We shouldn’t use them as a talent name.

    And, coming to this thread has shown me that there are people on these forums who didn't realize that Get Out wasn't a "Feel Good Movie of the Year" kind of flick...
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
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    And, coming to this thread has shown me that there are people on these forums who didn't realize that Get Out wasn't a "Feel Good Movie of the Year" kind of flick...
    Not sure what a mystery/thriller movie has to do with the dictionary definition of a word, but okay...
  • NegumikoNegumiko
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    make it stay Master Wandering Bard by default and allow players to go into settings and select a option to make it show Master Gypsy instead. only players who change this setting will see the Master Gypsy talent and everyone else will still see Master Wandering Bard unless they have selected the option as well. that way players who actually in enjoy the Master Gypsy talent title can still use it without offending other players. something like that would solve most of the problem. personally I loved the Master Gypsy talent title and never considered a slur or insult in mabi, but instead saw it as a interesting culture that made mabi feel more unique and accurate since it is a game in medieval times. sad to see that talent title go.
    Darkpixie99PlatinaKokiSherri
  • HelsaHelsa
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    What talents were combined to make the Gypsy talent?
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
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    edited August 20, 2019
    Helsa wrote: »
    What talents were combined to make the Gypsy talent?

    Music and Adventure
    (Music only recently added dance into the talent, and dance+adventure=you are a gypsy/nomad in Mabinogi's medieval-ish time setting.)
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    What if the removal was because not too many players actually fit the description of the talent?
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
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    edited August 20, 2019
    What if the removal was because not too many players actually fit the description of the talent?

    So if the Pottery Making skill was added, Fortune Telling became a skill, Dance became a Talent of it's own, the Hidden Title required all Dance/Music/Adventure/ect talents, and it was made into a whole quest line of learning the Bard Camp history and ways of life, your character joins into that way of life, then would players fit into the description? You gotta remember that this is a fantasy game, you don't have to be black or an elf to play a black elf.
    Sherri
  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    What if the removal was because not too many players actually fit the description of the talent?

    So if the Pottery Making skill was added, Dance became a Talent of it's own, the Hidden Title required all three talents, and it was made into a whole quest line of learning the Bard Camp history and ways of life, your character joins into that way of life, then would players fit into the description? You gotta remember that this is a fantasy game, you don't have to be black or an elf to play a black elf.

    I don't understand how pottery would fit into music and dance, but then again this is Mabi.
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
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    edited August 20, 2019
    I don't understand how pottery would fit into music and dance, but then again this is Mabi.

    Gypsies were known for not only singing and dancing, but pottery repairing, and some were even fortune tellers.
    Remember Katrina from Animal Crossing? Yeah, pretty sure her outfit isn't as natural to her surroundings either.
  • HelsaHelsa
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    Helsa wrote: »
    What talents were combined to make the Gypsy talent?

    Music and Adventure
    (Music only recently added dance into the talent, and dance+adventure=you are a gypsy/nomad in Mabinogi's medieval-ish time setting.)

    Has the talent been removed or renamed?
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
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    edited August 20, 2019
    Helsa wrote: »
    Has the talent been removed or renamed?

    Just renamed.
  • HelsaHelsa
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    Wandering Bard right?
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
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    Helsa wrote: »
    Wandering Bard right?

    Yeah, doesn't have that same exotic ring to it. Makes you sound lost, rather than a nomad.
  • HelsaHelsa
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    Helsa wrote: »
    Wandering Bard right?

    Yeah, doesn't have that same exotic ring to it. Makes you sound lost, rather than a nomad.

    Notice that it is not Wandering Minstrel, which would seem more proper. I suspect this was to avoid any possible association with the concept of a Minstrel Show, which is an ethnically charged thing in America. As such it seems pretty clear then that the name was changed out of respect for the Roma people.

    I do see what you mean about it not having the same "punch". However, any non-malicious wistful nostalgic whimsey regarding the term, by non-Roma people, notwithstanding, if "Gypsy" is the Roma peoples N-word, then it has to go. Perhaps the call then should be for a copacetic name better than "Wandering Bard"?
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
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    edited August 20, 2019
    Helsa wrote: »
    I do see what you mean about it not having the same "punch". However, any non-malicious wistful nostalgic whimsey regarding the term, by non-Roma people, notwithstanding, if "Gypsy" is the Roma peoples N-word, then it has to go. Perhaps the call then should be for a copacetic name better than "Wandering Bard"?

    I don't know, and I honestly don't care, unless a Romani actually goes or went out in public to express that their people do indeed still have a problem with as opposed to a passing dislike or distaste for being referred to as gypsies.
    All things considered, it at least fit the medieval time frame of Mabinogi, and was more or less a general term for nomads at the time.
    Unless a Romai tribe actually requested the term be changed themselves, then I'm still displeased with Nexon's actions.
    Taking the coward's way out by changing things right away, is only an admission that this was something to be guilty or be offended about.
    Spinning the Bard Camp (Nomads who admit being known as gypsies) of this fantasy world into a more positive experience for everyone would have been the best course of action.
    If it had indeed been a problem, then like I said above:
    Nexon could have established a website to educate people about the Romani, and donated a portions of their gachapon profit to them as well.

    According to the dictionary, these related words would've been better for replacing the gypsy title:
    nomad, nomadic, bohemian, vagrant, roamer

    Btw, anything offensive can become unoffensive through self recognition that it's merely a word.
    Words have multiple definitions across multiple languages. Pick the one you like best, and relax, life goes on.

  • KensamaofmariKensamaofmari
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    Helsa wrote: »
    I do see what you mean about it not having the same "punch". However, any non-malicious wistful nostalgic whimsey regarding the term, by non-Roma people, notwithstanding, if "Gypsy" is the Roma peoples N-word, then it has to go. Perhaps the call then should be for a copacetic name better than "Wandering Bard"?

    I don't know, and I honestly don't care, unless a Romani actually goes or went out in public to express that their people do indeed still have a problem with as opposed to a passing dislike or distaste for being referred to as gypsies.
    All things considered, it at least fit the medieval time frame of Mabinogi, and was more or less a general term for nomads at the time.
    Unless a Romai tribe actually requested the term be changed themselves, then I'm still displeased with Nexon's actions.
    Taking the coward's way out by changing things right away, is only an admission that this was something to be guilty or be offended about.
    Spinning the Bard Camp (Nomads who admit being known as gypsies) of this fantasy world into a more positive experience for everyone would have been the best course of action.
    If it had indeed been a problem, then like I said above:
    Nexon could have established a website to educate people about the Romani, and donated a portions of their gachapon profit to them as well.

    According to the dictionary, these related words would've been better for replacing the gypsy title:
    nomad, nomadic, bohemian, vagrant, roamer

    Btw, anything offensive can become unoffensive through self recognition that it's merely a word.
    Words have multiple definitions across multiple languages. Pick the one you like best, and relax, life goes on.

    They should use jester.
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
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    edited August 20, 2019
    They should use jester.
    Jester is a nice title, and there's already jester clothes out there.
    But... Jester is more commonly used as "a royal clown," and I don't think there are any Prankster talents, or any relateable skills.
    Unless you were to earn it by pranking the Alban Knights in Avalon. (While bearing Adventure/Bard Talent Title)