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Statistical Debate Forum Regarding Race Imbalance

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  • SirRyuSirRyu
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,390
    Posts: 106
    Member
    scorpin99 wrote: »
    @SirRyu

    You neglect the fact that shylien nature reserve exists, and that without the ancient elven technology with things like staves and shylien caused staves like the hermit staff or much later the celtic stuff to exist.

    still, elves need better magic, not to mention our bolt ap costs.

    Ancient elves aren't the same as current elves, and clearly we would have still have something similar since Merlin pretty much made the same thing in knuckle form.

    Anyways the advantages the elves had mattered back when they first appeared, as time went on the lined blurred, magic become more equal for all the races while archery slowly shifted towards elves being at the top, thanks to the recent updates.
  • DaktaroDaktaro
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,215
    Posts: 281
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    the way i saw it elves were meant to excel at ranged attack (magic/archery) weak at close range, giants meant to excel at close range (combat/lances) weak at ranged attacks, and humans all-rounder jack of all trades master of none type of thing.
    then alch and the hybrid talents got added, humans got buffed to heck in the renovation and here we are.

    another thing to back up elves = archer/mage is their falcon special move. magic missile! it's literally magic combined with archery.
    Kaga wrote: »
    Instead of all these repetitive "revamps" for elves that only revamps archery, I hope we see some Magic revamp this time.
    same :\

    SylviaWolfeKaga
  • LaossLaoss
    Mabinogi Rep: 510
    Posts: 9
    Member
    *just strolling along through the forums*
    As an elf player since they were introduced~ Ill just try to highlight the things I think would be appropriately reasonable to receive to make things more "balanced". I'm going to ignore the KR stuff for the moment.

    -Add quality of life buffs to final shot, it's not a bad skill, buts it's really clunky and lackluster compared to the human counterpart. It needs to have its load time removed (it has a 2 second load time for who knows why...), teleporting shouldn't decrease duration imo (it's useful... but duration is short and humans can teleport too albeit with limits), and please please remove the part where your current skill gets cancelled when FS ends. I can't stand being halfway through loading magnum shot and FS ends and cancels my mag and just leaves me standing their like an idiot.
    -Lower Support shot's cooldown to match that of humans, there's no need for it, it's inconsistent with the idea of elves being a support class~
    -Lastly let's look at stat differences (I'm really surprised no one mentioned this)
    Str: Humans get 209 more than elves, giants get 232 more
    Int: Humans get 14 less than elves, giants get 22 less
    Dex: Humans get 20 less than elves, giants get 303 less
    Will: Humans get 46 more than elves, giants get 59 more
    Anyone with eyes can see that this difference is massive... especially when every single 2nd tier skill-set uses Str (Puppet, Ninja, Dual-guns). Honestly if you just made it so that elves ended up with about 50 less str than humans, it would be okay. (idk what to even tell you about Giants and dex... at least it only applies to 1 skillset for them)

    As for the new KR updates, I'm excited for the 400% aim speed nonsense, since I'm one of those dirty mag spammers that has the gear and connection to back it up. Sadly this isn't the case for most people... but we'll just have to wait and see once it gets here. As for giants I can't really say much since I have never really played them, but I think the giant revamp is a step in the right direction with those dual wield bash enhance hammers.

    Anywho... sorry for wall of text (I just wanted to conversate) ^-^
    Daktaro
  • SirRyuSirRyu
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,390
    Posts: 106
    Member
    Laoss wrote: »
    *just strolling along through the forums*
    As an elf player since they were introduced~ Ill just try to highlight the things I think would be appropriately reasonable to receive to make things more "balanced". I'm going to ignore the KR stuff for the moment.

    -Add quality of life buffs to final shot, it's not a bad skill, buts it's really clunky and lackluster compared to the human counterpart. It needs to have its load time removed (it has a 2 second load time for who knows why...), teleporting shouldn't decrease duration imo (it's useful... but duration is short and humans can teleport too albeit with limits), and please please remove the part where your current skill gets cancelled when FS ends. I can't stand being halfway through loading magnum shot and FS ends and cancels my mag and just leaves me standing their like an idiot.
    -Lower Support shot's cooldown to match that of humans, there's no need for it, it's inconsistent with the idea of elves being a support class~
    -Lastly let's look at stat differences (I'm really surprised no one mentioned this)
    Str: Humans get 209 more than elves, giants get 232 more
    Int: Humans get 14 less than elves, giants get 22 less
    Dex: Humans get 20 less than elves, giants get 303 less
    Will: Humans get 46 more than elves, giants get 59 more
    Anyone with eyes can see that this difference is massive... especially when every single 2nd tier skill-set uses Str (Puppet, Ninja, Dual-guns). Honestly if you just made it so that elves ended up with about 50 less str than humans, it would be okay. (idk what to even tell you about Giants and dex... at least it only applies to 1 skillset for them)

    As for the new KR updates, I'm excited for the 400% aim speed nonsense, since I'm one of those dirty mag spammers that has the gear and connection to back it up. Sadly this isn't the case for most people... but we'll just have to wait and see once it gets here. As for giants I can't really say much since I have never really played them, but I think the giant revamp is a step in the right direction with those dual wield bash enhance hammers.

    Anywho... sorry for wall of text (I just wanted to conversate) ^-^

    I has good news for you then~ FS has had the teleport reducing time limit thing removed for a good while now.
  • LaossLaoss
    Mabinogi Rep: 510
    Posts: 9
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    Oh my, time to start using it again~ I guess I just never noticed ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • FeliceFelice
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,490
    Posts: 98
    Member
    edited March 4, 2017
    This is part of another issue I have a problem with. With the addition of those weapon-specific smash effects, it was starting to look like they were going to start adding more variety between the weapon types, so there'd be a reason to use something other than swords/lances and bows. Then we come to the Celtic weapons, and only the CRK swords have any sort of special effect, and the rest (of the close combat weapons) are just slight improvements on existing weapons (but they do look cooler).

    Meanwhile, in the ranged department, their solution to the 'nobody uses crossbows' problem was to just make crossbows better than bows in most every way. Crossbows are just the natural end-game of ranged combat now. As a bow fan, I am Displeased.

    Having spent the last week actively training archery using both Bows and Crossbows, I can tell a very distinct difference to them Bows, by default, do not all have any Pierce Level to them like Crossbows now do. Some of the higher-end bows, Do have Pierce, however, and there is one feature that almost all bows have over any crossbow, range. On average, a Bow has 150% to 200% range on any Crossbow of equal damage, and having trained in both, I will take range over pierce, as I have Lance for Pierce if I have to close to Crossbow-level ranges.

    Something I Always mention to my guild as well as friends, is that There's a somewhat simple way to resolve the Stat differences between the races.

    Giants:
    Remove the skill Throw Attack, completely, refunding AP for the skill cost to anyone who has it ranked, and instead, Add the Atlatl and javelins to the list of things capable of using the Archery Skill Pool, giving Giants the Archery Talent, but with slightly reduced dex bonuses to let elves not feel as insignificant.

    Elves:
    Instead of giving Elves the ability to use Lances, Add the Rapier-class weapons to the Lance Skill Pool. instead of having the mid-range that a Lance does, it has normal melee range, Give the weapon Pierce as well, but with less effectiveness than a lance, as Rapiers were designed to pierce armor, or take advantage of small holes in armor. Doing this gives Elves access to the Knight Talent and access to the majority of the added Strength that Humans and Giants get from Lance.

    Now, naturally, elves would not get the full 200-230 strength to make up the difference, 100-150 strength would still have them trail behind Humans and Giants, statistically, but at the same time, the margin of difference would be on a Mage-Level difference. Any race can do magic, there is less than a 50 points difference between all the races, meaning there is... what? a whole 4-5 Magic Attack Differential between the races as far as Magic goes. Why not find a way to change the tables, and make Dex and Strength the same thing?
    DaktaroMiasmata
  • TheDumbOneTheDumbOne
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,790
    Posts: 342
    Member
    magic may need a revamp, many of you suggest this... but it also has more skills and favoritism. i mean its a flawless enjoyed skill set. - i think (personally) it doesnt really need revamp.... i always see people either using mage or final hit. - if it needs a revamp... why do so many ppl use it in hard core battles than fighter or archery....etc...

    i dont hate the idea. but i just cant get my head around it being a bad skill set. its one of the best in game if not the best in game.

    I personally want alchemy to be fixed... tons of alch stuff swept under the rug and isnt even remotely useful.
    Ice Mines - States or ranks don't effect strength of ice mine(weak). They also don't chain the ice blasts. (like the one in shadow missions)(rag dolls also target them)They take to much to synth ONE icemine...-

    Tower Cylinder - with duel cylinders, a tower cylinder not even REMOTELY worth using. Cant even use some of the regular alchemy skills, much less golden time, and reloads no faster than a average duel cylinders. (i personally allow golden time, golem Ai and faster reload, for a tower cylinder OR... just instant reload.... for the skills provided) - the tower cylinder was supposed to be a swap for mobility for reload and strength, but now all u get is limited skill set.

    Sand Burst - lullaby field stuns opponents like nothing for a very long time, and the last update for sand burst was to take away its 5 hits per load, and make it 1 hit per load... - its also always out of range to attack a blinker. unless ur standing DIRECTLY under a blinker... and u cant lock on and click to do that, u manually have to go under the blinker becuase the character wont get close up.

    Summon Golem.... the Ai.... so bad....i actually had more trouble using a golem than not using one at all... the only good a golem is, is that when your using a tower cylinder you can fight far away opponents (of course the range of golem is so small... that it cant get to opponents...my pets go further...)

    im pretty sure someone read this and thought "wow this person cant spell" or "wow no one uses theses skills becuase their useless" <= which i agree deeply with both, and both issues need to be fixed <3

    Archery-
    now my biggest issue with archery- was the reload. if it had more reload options, FOR example: do not load basic archer mastery. (so people wont load skilless arrow. becuase they weaaakkkkkkk). (i personally like it if it worked the same way as the tower cylinder and will reloaded the last skill used as your basic attack)
    GretaDaktaro
  • KagaKaga
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,960
    Posts: 610
    Member
    Felice wrote: »
    This is part of another issue I have a problem with. With the addition of those weapon-specific smash effects, it was starting to look like they were going to start adding more variety between the weapon types, so there'd be a reason to use something other than swords/lances and bows. Then we come to the Celtic weapons, and only the CRK swords have any sort of special effect, and the rest (of the close combat weapons) are just slight improvements on existing weapons (but they do look cooler).

    Meanwhile, in the ranged department, their solution to the 'nobody uses crossbows' problem was to just make crossbows better than bows in most every way. Crossbows are just the natural end-game of ranged combat now. As a bow fan, I am Displeased.

    Now, naturally, elves would not get the full 200-230 strength to make up the difference, 100-150 strength would still have them trail behind Humans and Giants, statistically, but at the same time, the margin of difference would be on a Mage-Level difference. Any race can do magic, there is less than a 50 points difference between all the races, meaning there is... what? a whole 4-5 Magic Attack Differential between the races as far as Magic goes. Why not find a way to change the tables, and make Dex and Strength the same thing?

    On top of that, INT IS the easiest stat to cap, so there isn't really any big difference when it comes to Magic.
    Would be great if they gave elves more M-att in general than Humans/Giants.
  • SiodhanSiodhan
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,825
    Posts: 315
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    The range advantage of bows over crossbows is mitigated greatly by effective range 20 reforges, which are basically necessary for endgame archery to make it worth dirt, because it's a flat bonus rather than a percentage, meaning both are equally affected and thus bows are getting a much lower percentage bonus than xbows do from the reforges. Yet there is no way to compensate for the lack of piercing, which brings us back to square one.

    As I've mentioned in my post a few pages prior already and someone people pointed out again recently, the stat bonuses and lag issues are way more threatening than the lack of effective range and loading speed from the new skill that is supposedly coming.

    Also, I know barely anyone uses trans anymore - but with trans and cater it is very easy to max out dex and int on elves. Hell, even with just cater or just trans. So as I suggested, it'd be easier to simply add some max damage and magic attack for elves, or casting speed perhaps.
    Eventually, when a few more skills get released, they'll either have to uncap the stats or implement these kinds of workarounds, because it's going to feel even more pointless to work on skills that will in no way benefit you after ranking them.
    There is much more fixing needed for elves than just the raw stats.

    Lastly, it doesn't matter if alchemy needs a buff or not. This thread is about debating racial imbalance, not that alchemy needs fixing. It might just, but that is not the point.
    I do however think that you're wrong about magic being good - it's decent at best. Aside from the fact that all races are somewhat equal in it due to an excessively large mana pool being available, the only skills worth dirt are firebolt, lightning rod and the occasional snap cast...and blaze I guess for those who use it.
    The rest are just..kinda there. They can't possibly match up to the rest in most situations because these afforementioned ones are allrounders with an insane amount of damage and utility...just like: BASH AND FH! Thing is though, while I think balancing skills within one talent is definitely necessary at some point, again, this is about a racial debate...and elves do need an edge here for sure, especially if lore IS taken into consideration.
    Daktaro
  • GretaGreta
    Mabinogi Rep: 45,965
    Posts: 6,824
    Member
    edited March 5, 2017
    TheDumbOne wrote: »
    I personally want alchemy to be fixed...

    I agree. Alchemy needs real revamp there. People say that we need Magic revamp, but i think that's silly... Most players use Mage, Bard and Warrior skills here, since they give nice and fast damage to monsters while Bard helps to get some nice buffs. We already had Magic revamp along with Warrior and Archery. I think it's time to revamp Alchemy and Life skills now. They should also nerf Ninja, Puppeteer and Gunslinger training requirements, because ranking some skills in these talents is so frustrating, especially Ninja and Gunslinger. Gunner is a huge pain to players that are not from NA. I keep getting latency in shooting and using skills here...
  • OrkaneOrkane
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,255
    Posts: 130
    Member
    edited March 5, 2017
    Greta wrote: »
    TheDumbOne wrote: »
    I personally want alchemy to be fixed...

    I agree. Alchemy needs real revamp there. People say that we need Magic revamp, but i think that's silly... Most players use Mage, Bard and Warrior skills here, since they give nice and fast damage to monsters while Bard helps to get some nice buffs. We already had Magic revamp along with Warrior and Archery. I think it's time to revamp Alchemy and Life skills now. They should also nerf Ninja, Puppeteer and Gunslinger training requirements, because ranking some skills in these talents is so frustrating, especially Ninja and Gunslinger. Gunner is a huge pain to players that are not from NA. I keep getting latency in shooting and using skills here...

    Magic needs some changes, but not improvements per se. It needs changes to the way its damage is calculated so that it scales like everything else and so the skill descriptions are actually useful rather than misleading. For example:

    Blaze's skill description says "Increased explosion damage" how's a new player supposed to figure out if ranking it up is going to be useful based on that?

    Lightning bolt's skill description says 40-150 damage while hailstorm says 200-300 both at rank 1. Again, from a new player's perspective it's very easy to think that lightning bolt is does up to 50% of hailstorm's damage.

    There's also the lack of clarity that magic's damage calculations bring in terms of equipment. For the most part, you're better off enchanting gear for max damage as opposed to magic attack if you want to increase the damage of bolt spells but not for blaze or hailstorm. As it is, there's no logical reason for someone to assume this is the case, nor is there any in game info that even hints at this but it's all due to nonsensical magic damage formulae. Battlefield overture also does something similar; for some people, with firebolt a 50% overture can actually double their damage whereas someone heavily focused on magic would find that the same overture adds less than 5% damage and for some spells, it doesn't even do anything at all.

    It's worth noting that alchemy has all these problems and more; magic just has better examples.
    TheDumbOne wrote: »
    Sand Burst - lullaby field stuns opponents like nothing for a very long time,

    Sand burst's fine as it is. A little bit more range would be nice though. Lullaby's the real problem; that skill's massively overpowered.
  • KagaKaga
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,960
    Posts: 610
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    edited March 5, 2017
    Siodhan wrote: »
    I do however think that you're wrong about magic being good - it's decent at best. Aside from the fact that all races are somewhat equal in it due to an excessively large mana pool being available, the only skills worth dirt are firebolt, lightning rod and the occasional snap cast...and blaze I guess for those who use it.
    The rest are just..kinda there. They can't possibly match up to the rest in most situations because these afforementioned ones are allrounders with an insane amount of damage and utility...just like: BASH AND FH! Thing is though, while I think balancing skills within one talent is definitely necessary at some point, again, this is about a racial debate...and elves do need an edge here for sure, especially if lore IS taken into consideration.

    Hailstorm is also good.
    Blaze is the best out of all of them, you can literally 1 hit any room, to the point you can compete with FH'er by doing n+blaze.
    Firebolt isn't even that useful, it's only good against 1 target imo, while blaze is for AoE (at end game level it doesn't even need setup like crisis + act 4)
    Which is why I hope elves do get more advantage (aka in the next revamp) when it comes to Magic, instead of archery like usual.
    Neyna
  • AlmostNotsuperAlmostNotsuper
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,955
    Posts: 269
    Member
    edited March 5, 2017
    Felice wrote: »
    This is part of another issue I have a problem with. With the addition of those weapon-specific smash effects, it was starting to look like they were going to start adding more variety between the weapon types, so there'd be a reason to use something other than swords/lances and bows. Then we come to the Celtic weapons, and only the CRK swords have any sort of special effect, and the rest (of the close combat weapons) are just slight improvements on existing weapons (but they do look cooler).

    Meanwhile, in the ranged department, their solution to the 'nobody uses crossbows' problem was to just make crossbows better than bows in most every way. Crossbows are just the natural end-game of ranged combat now. As a bow fan, I am Displeased.

    Having spent the last week actively training archery using both Bows and Crossbows, I can tell a very distinct difference to them Bows, by default, do not all have any Pierce Level to them like Crossbows now do. Some of the higher-end bows, Do have Pierce, however, and there is one feature that almost all bows have over any crossbow, range. On average, a Bow has 150% to 200% range on any Crossbow of equal damage, and having trained in both, I will take range over pierce, as I have Lance for Pierce if I have to close to Crossbow-level ranges.

    If effective range reforges weren't a thing, I would agree with you. That potential +1400 range dulls the advantage a bit (unless crossbows can't receive this particular effect, in which case all is well).

    What if elves had a passive or toggleable skill that converts a percentage of their physical damage to magic attack and vice-versa (only while equipped with a bow or crossbow, for the second one)?

    I have some ideas for alchemy too, but I'll save that for another thread so as not to derail more.
  • TheDumbOneTheDumbOne
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,790
    Posts: 342
    Member
    edited March 5, 2017
    thanks for reading my comments guys, <3 just saying. ;u; (i didnt want to re quote - just in case i took to much posting space)
    SylviaWolfe
  • scorpin99scorpin99
    Mabinogi Rep: 975
    Posts: 21
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    Felice wrote: »
    This is part of another issue I have a problem with. With the addition of those weapon-specific smash effects, it was starting to look like they were going to start adding more variety between the weapon types, so there'd be a reason to use something other than swords/lances and bows. Then we come to the Celtic weapons, and only the CRK swords have any sort of special effect, and the rest (of the close combat weapons) are just slight improvements on existing weapons (but they do look cooler).

    Meanwhile, in the ranged department, their solution to the 'nobody uses crossbows' problem was to just make crossbows better than bows in most every way. Crossbows are just the natural end-game of ranged combat now. As a bow fan, I am Displeased.

    Having spent the last week actively training archery using both Bows and Crossbows, I can tell a very distinct difference to them Bows, by default, do not all have any Pierce Level to them like Crossbows now do. Some of the higher-end bows, Do have Pierce, however, and there is one feature that almost all bows have over any crossbow, range. On average, a Bow has 150% to 200% range on any Crossbow of equal damage, and having trained in both, I will take range over pierce, as I have Lance for Pierce if I have to close to Crossbow-level ranges.

    If effective range reforges weren't a thing, I would agree with you. That potential +1400 range dulls the advantage a bit (unless crossbows can't receive this particular effect, in which case all is well).

    What if elves had a passive or toggleable skill that converts a percentage of their physical damage to magic attack and vice-versa (only while equipped with a bow or crossbow, for the second one)?

    I have some ideas for alchemy too, but I'll save that for another thread so as not to derail more.

    I don't want to have to rely on reforges for archery, it's way out of my price range to afford reforges, which is why I mage. That's also part of why people want a proper archery revamp, to reduce having to be reliant on reforges, at least I think.
  • NeynaNeyna
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,800
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    edited March 6, 2017
    scorpin99 wrote: »
    I don't want to have to rely on reforges for archery, it's way out of my price range to afford reforges, which is why I mage. That's also part of why people want a proper archery revamp, to reduce having to be reliant on reforges, at least I think.

    Isn't better if they update mage instead? since mage talent is more affordable and not much money/gold are needed to be invested to be "end game mage".

    Instead of giving aiming speed etc, they should just give more magic attack or more magic damage bonus.

    Archery revamp/update (mainly aiming speed) won't benefit anyone outside of NA anyways, because we have this thing called "lag" which is really unfair if elves only get archery-related for everything.

    So if this is elf related, I'd like to see them do something about mage more than archery.

    Kaga
  • FoodfoodfoodFoodfoodfood
    Mabinogi Rep: 980
    Posts: 51
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    edited March 8, 2017
    A couple comments I would like to add:

    1. Not enough elves use combo cards. An elf with a magnum combo card will match human FH dps even in the current game. I think a lot of people overlook combo cards cause they're expensive to make, but they did recently release a magnum combo card in a combo card gacha at least.

    2. Yea FH is good, but without it, what advantage do humans have exactly? Just celtic sword bash, which is already better dps than FH actually with a good connection, plus giants are receiving their CRKs soon. Should humans just go back to having no significant end game advantage over elves/giants like before the FH buff? I don't think so, I'd rather each race have some advantage. I think FH is only arguably broken in SMs and Peaca Abyss because they're old content and monsters tend to die very quickly, so the massive DPS potential from combo carded elves aren't noticed, but humans teleporting around 2 shotting them looks OP. If you look up an elf doing Phantasm with magnum spam, he does fine. If you look up Alban Heroic runs, no one is FHing by the 3rd/4th floor.

    3. Isn't a 400% aim speed a really nice buff already? I don't see why that's not good enough. The argument seems to be that elves are pigeonholed into having to spam magnum.... ok.... that's like complaining about humans pigeonholed into spamming FH and having to get FH reforges. Mabinogi will always have some optimal single/multi target DPS method, so why is it "bad" for magnum to be that DPS skill like FH? As for the complaint about lag making archery impossible, fact is that lags makes a LOT of skills difficult to use. My FH is even affected by my lag, but do I deserve buffs? Probably not.

    4. I think giants deserve buffs, and they're getting plenty of it. I wanna say they will definitely be able to keep up with FH/CRK bash DPS with their new weapons and no cooldown on charge. On top of that, they will do 15% more damage while being tanky with windguard and having the option to spam full swing. Doesn't it sound really nice?

    5. This game is pretty easy already. In its current state any race can do any content, so I think we should all just chill and enjoy the game. As a human, I have no problem with elves and giants getting buffs because everything is easily doable anyways.
    Nilrem
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,125
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    I think one of the reasons people are not content with how the races are balanced is because of how homogenized people want to make combat. The many complaints harks back to Final Hit, and while the skill it self is rather powerful, it is also something of a characteristic for humans. However, because of the wider spread of human players than other races, their strategies and play styles are pronounced and demand that others play similar to them, here lies the issue. The play styles of all 3 races are fundamentally different, this difference is very noticeable when each of the races are playing in extremely difficult content.

    A human player will use their main advantages, their impressive DPS from Final Hit, and highly variable nature from being able to use any weapon type and combat talent, a human player will most likely mix different skill mechanics to give them the longest time that they can stay in Final Hit while minimizing the damage, this plays to their racial characteristics. The elf's main advantage is their hide ability and Final Shot skill which characterizes their intended play style extremely well. With the highest run speed of all the races, elves are suppose to be about position, position that gives them the best chance to escape a situation and deal damage with minimum risk to themselves. Giants boost high melee damage, heavy strikes and high defenses, their characteristics are to survive a direct confrontation to deliver the most damage while minimizing the damage received.

    While this is a simple analysis of the three racial traits, the play styles are actually quite different from each other. What most people have grown accustom to is DPS, this being the deciding factor in all arguments with no considerations for anything else, and this is the issue. Elves and giants are directly competing with a trait and advantage granted to the human race, something that both parties were to put equal effort into, the human will always see better DPS than any of the other races, instead of trying to compete with something that is blatantly advantageous to someone else, it would be better to look at your own strength and build off that, your enjoyment of the game will increase. Of course these are just noticeable advantages to each race, but there are hidden and lesser known advantages and traits that only people that are long time players will recognize. To get the best enjoyment out of your play style, don't compete with another player in a different race, they have different traits and characteristics and doing so will only make you feel inferior and jealous, use your own style and just do your best, even within people of the same race, there are stronger and weak players, the same applies to racially diverse parties.
    SirRyu
  • KagaKaga
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,960
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    A couple comments I would like to add:

    1. Not enough elves use combo cards. An elf with a magnum combo card will match human FH dps even in the current game. I think a lot of people overlook combo cards cause they're expensive to make, but they did recently release a magnum combo card in a combo card gacha at least.

    2. Yea FH is good, but without it, what advantage do humans have exactly? Just celtic sword bash, which is already better dps than FH actually with a good connection, plus giants are receiving their CRKs soon. Should humans just go back to having no significant end game advantage over elves/giants like before the FH buff? I don't think so, I'd rather each race have some advantage. I think FH is only arguably broken in SMs and Peaca Abyss because they're old content and monsters tend to die very quickly, so the massive DPS potential from combo carded elves aren't noticed, but humans teleporting around 2 shotting them looks OP. If you look up an elf doing Phantasm with magnum spam, he does fine. If you look up Alban Heroic runs, no one is FHing by the 3rd/4th floor.

    3. Isn't a 400% aim speed a really nice buff already? I don't see why that's not good enough. The argument seems to be that elves are pigeonholed into having to spam magnum.... ok.... that's like complaining about humans pigeonholed into spamming FH and having to get FH reforges. Mabinogi will always have some optimal single/multi target DPS method, so why is it "bad" for magnum to be that DPS skill like FH? As for the complaint about lag making archery impossible, fact is that lags makes a LOT of skills difficult to use. My FH is even affected by my lag, but do I deserve buffs? Probably not.

    4. I think giants deserve buffs, and they're getting plenty of it. I wanna say they will definitely be able to keep up with FH/CRK bash DPS with their new weapons and no cooldown on charge. On top of that, they will do 15% more damage while being tanky with windguard and having the option to spam full swing. Doesn't it sound really nice?

    5. This game is pretty easy already. In its current state any race can do any content, so I think we should all just chill and enjoy the game. As a human, I have no problem with elves and giants getting buffs because everything is easily doable anyways.

    1. It wouldn't change the fact that elves still depend on reforges, and magnum spam, compared to FH that doesn't even need a combo card because it's OP already.
    Sadly I don't archer so I don't use that 55% gold magnum card, I only use a selfmade blaze combo card because I mage.

    2. Stats. They have stat advantages and they are good "all-around".
    Elves are SUPPOSED to have more advantage in Magic AND Archery than humans, which they don't. (Maybe no CD Mag spam)
    I am also pretty sure people wanted elves to have some kind of revamp/buff before FH even was broken.


    3. It's not that it's "bad" but it's not good ENOUGH. Sure humans get "movement speed" which isn't really that good but hey, humans are already OP anyways.
    But when giants get a 10% combat DMG, a 400% aim speed looks bad if you compare it to that. IMO they could have given elves some kind of Magic Attack/Damage boost. But instead now elves will do the same, just a bit faster (a.k.a mag spam)
    Plus there is something called "lag" which most people know about. If NA archers can't compete with KR archers (because of lag) how do you think EU elves would feel?
    Sure both Archery and FH is DPS/Ping dependent. But archery gets more affected by lag than FH.

    4. I don't mind giants getting buffs, but elves sure as hell need(ed) a buff/revamp too. Why do you think most people heard about "elf QQ threads" more than "giant QQ threads" to begin with? Elves have been complaining for years, that's why.

    5. I do know most things are doable already, even as an elf. But at the same time it grinds my gears when I keep seeing humans and giants get the good stuff, while elves are set aside.
    Not pointing fingers here, but I don't think humans or giants will really understand how hard it is to play elves if they never main'ed one.

    I agree that it's all about enjoying the game, but it's no fun when elves need to go all out (whether it's reforge heavy mag spam or magic) while humans can just pick up 2x good swords, get FH reforge on armor, headgear and viola.

    I also agree with FH needing a nerf, that skill is way too OP and needs a nerf.
    Humans pretty much use FH on 90% of the content that we have in Mabinogi.

    I said it before too, as a player who mains an elf; hide is useless, archery on pet is too (unless you trying to get Phantasm breaker title)
    FS can't compete with FH
    Mirage Missile is trash.
    Hide + hydra isn't anything "special" either. Not every elf loves to hide and wait 30 hours to finish a dungeon/SM with that tactic.

    Why don't people realize elves are supposed to have an advantage in magic too? right now they are on the same level as humans when it comes to magic.
    I for one will never archer. Lets be real here; Magnum (for mag spam) Is more reforge heavy than FH.

    I probably would sit here like the rest and tell people to just enjoy the game the way it is too, if I was a human or a giant.
    SiodhanSylviaWolfe
  • SiodhanSiodhan
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,825
    Posts: 315
    Member
    1. Combo cards are powerful indeed. But non-gachaing players can not get a mag spam card at this point. I've once suggested to bring back the combo card maker permanently and the idea was kind of ignored.
    I was there at the SAO event when it was last a thing, but I wasn't strong enough by far to get all the cards I'd have liked to have, nor did I know which ones I DID actually want, because the gameplay is ever changing. Now the chance is forfeit.
    However, FH and bash spam are always possible and even involve way less effort to become efficient.

    2. I'm in favor of keeping FH strong. I do however think it doesn't need to be as ridiculous. The balance of the game doesn't need to be broken in the first place.
    Again, combo carded people would be noticable if they existed in proper amounts and if at this point they weren't behind a paywall.

    3. It's not, because there are plenty of other ways to buff that involve...I don't know, not depending on people to have no lag?
    It's not like people like myself want more than that - I just want an appropriate measure rather than a "here, have 400% extra aim speed, OH WAIT LOL TOO BAD IT ONLY HELPS IN THEORY", because at that point it feels more like taunting mockery.

    4. Giants definitely deserve a buff. To be fair, I am kind of tired of hearing the thing where humans need something to be great at when their point was to be a jack of all trades, so perhaps at some point it'd be feasible to turn that into an actual strength in regards to another seperate talent entirely, so that giants can excel at melee like they should, if we really do have to give them a special thing for people to feel like being able to do literally anything is an upside.

    5. It's not as much about chilling as it is about wanting actual balance. It's perfectly NORMAL for every race to be able to run any content. However, there are many issues that come with a lack of balance in a game. Just to mention a few:
    -Loss of sense of accomplishment when comparing to the 500x better thing that you didn't pick because mabi advertises itself as a game where you can be what you want to be
    -Insane time consumption and repair costs for weaker talents because you have to hit hp sponges roughly 10-30 times as much, or even more, than a guy who just slaps entire rooms to death with one FH that doesn't use dura.
    -Heavy reliance on real life money to be able to work with some talents at all, while some are not only way stronger, but also faster and cheaper
    -Misinformation in regards to ingame references towards things that will trick new players into believing an alternate fact, only to realize they've been lied to
    -People being unable to switch character races or main talents (gear-wise) easily because of the amount of time and effort they put into characters


    You and I have certainly made some points, though I find there are also flip sides to each of those issues, which I'm sure also have yet some more counter arguments against them.
    A small difference wouldn't really be causing that much of an uproar, but as it stands the difference in various afforementioned factors can simply be so insane that of course people would want to complain and get it balanced.
    Of course you'd compare DPS to DPS. If the difference was marginal, you wouldn't notice it that much either. To begin with, it's okay for archery and magic (even for elves) to be slightly weaker than melee because it's a form of combat you do at range, with less risks involved that come with being a melee fighter.
    That's why of course balancing doesn't stop with just races, but talents in general. For now though, there have been several points raised as to why a racial rebalance would really help make amends until real balance comes around, if it ever does.
    Every race has their own playstyle, but it doesn't really matter how you play a race against an enemy that's already dead. The way combat currently works is kill or be killed..and if you're really bad at taking out hp sponges that 1-3 hit kill you even at near max possible health, it doesn't really matter anymore how much of a positional or tanky advantage you have. Nor does it matter in terms of repairs and other factors.
    Generally, the whole combat against wolf-AI enemies with an increasing amount of hp and damage is part of what causes this arms race and that's probably not going to stop anytime soon. One thing's for sure though, in whatever content the game does actually allow you to group up in (another regressing trend in an actual so-called mmo), you don't want to feel like dead weight even at level 16k+ just because of a race you've picked ages ago. Humans may feel fine in that regard and not acknowledge this problem, brush it off as "you don't need to compare yourself in that way to others", but if you're just standing around trying to take aim until things drop dead in front of you..that's not fun. Not teamwork either.
    SylviaWolfe
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