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Thoughts On G21? (Content And Story)

Comments

  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 24,290
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    *Treasure Hunter shows up without being asked for*

    *Does absolutely nothing*

    *Takes a reward for a service we did not ask for, need, or was in anyway beneficial to us*


    Yeah yeah, totally nothing wrong here, Voight 2.0!

    Kingofrunes
  • LeineiLeinei
    Mabinogi Rep: 16,015
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    Yeah, Treasure Hunter is (put nicely) a real piece of work... >=T
  • HellkaizerHellkaizer
    Mabinogi Rep: 11,305
    Posts: 1,066
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    *Treasure Hunter shows up without being asked for*

    *Does absolutely nothing*

    *Takes a reward for a service we did not ask for, need, or was in anyway beneficial to us*


    Yeah yeah, totally nothing wrong here, Voight 2.0!

    >Going to turn in a crystal orb for the 8th time
    >Oops... no refunds btw
    >Go to MA tourney to give him a slow painful beating to vent my anger
  • BlankeyeBlankeye
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,540
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    TH's role in G21 was so random and pointless but it was so "TH" of him to be there and take credit for literally nothing so I'll let it pass, I think it was really funny.
    Also as someone who experienced the KR version of G21 months before the NA version, it hurt me so much when so many people were calling Altam useless and stupid when I knew just how amazing and cool he was going to be later in this gen! I'm so happy to see him really show more courage than any of the other knights who just watched as a giant sword was plunged into your body. Kinda salty about how vague Llywelyn was being about his "explanation" for Altam being able to be able to pull the sword out. I hope we get a real answer eventually. (But I'm expecting it to just be open-ended forever.) BUT it would also be so neat to see Altam become the new commander! Like if we meet him again in C7 and he's now the commander of the Alban Knights, but with the same dorky personality, it would be soooo great. ㅠㅠ I really want to see it. I also hope we get to know Llywelyn a bit better in the future. Maybe he'll have a role in G22. Either way, I can't wait to see these knights again in the future. Hopefully sooner than later. I know they had a role in KR's 14th anniversary event, as well as their 2018 April Fools event, so we will see them again eventually!
  • IyasenuIyasenu
    Mabinogi Rep: 24,265
    Posts: 2,887
    Member
    *Treasure Hunter shows up without being asked for*

    *Does absolutely nothing*

    *Takes a reward for a service we did not ask for, need, or was in anyway beneficial to us*


    Yeah yeah, totally nothing wrong here, Voight 2.0!

    Treasure Hunter in G21 like:
    7056a35fd7.png
    HellkaizerKingofrunesImaizumiWolfandWolfMikkomeowvioletkittLialin
  • TeasesTeases
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,330
    Posts: 67
    Member
    Moments found throughout G21(and credits) well okay, most of them
    1_zpslazalfvb.png
    3_zpskert8qtn.png
    2_zpsnfs5hguk.png
    Talvish_zpsppcgolg5.png

  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    Altam exceeded my expectations, what with him pulling out the sword and all.
    LeineiKingofrunes
  • LeineiLeinei
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    Hey, guys, it looks like Mabinogi World Wiki has a guide up for Part 2. It's accessible from the main page under the light blue banner where it says "Most recent update: G21 S1: Finale" or just by searching 'g21' in the search bar. Hope this helps!
  • SollSoll
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,190
    Posts: 139
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    edited July 14, 2018
    My only beef with g21(aside from what already mentioned up here) is that they should've put more art in important moments, especially part 2.

    The credits were a little disappointing since it was just recycling the art we saw through the gen as well. There could have been other stuff, like the aftermath See what the knights are up to in some kind of epilogue, i dunno. G20's credits had more in that way.

    Most importantly, there should have been a portrait of the elder without his helm at the Merlin RP, Altam should have gotten art when he pulled the sword out.

    I just feel there's been a lot of wasted opportunities to add in art pieces, and that would've made the whole gen more immersive....
    ImaizumiVeylaineGretaBlissfulkillKingofrunes
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 24,290
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    edited July 14, 2018
    I found Talvish's argument regarding balance trite. While I do agree with the concept that kindness is meaningful due to the capacity of the individual to be cruel, and that one cannot emphasize the virtues of one thing without the flaw from which it purportedly rises above, the idea that the presence of bad has to exist so that the other can is fundamentally ridiculous to me.

    It isn't that we need darkness to define light; rather, it is the ideal that we cannot eliminate either in totality anyway, not for one to balance the other in equal measure in opposing directions. This is where Talvish went wrong; he assumed his ends should be the eternal peace and happiness for all, yet that is not remotely possible. He therefore concluded that the nature of such should be the equilibrium he seeks, rather than merely accepting that this is the burden of being righteous; the fight never ends.

    It isn't that we shouldn't attempt to do so, but to realize that what we seek is an impossibility worth fighting for in the end. We can hardly extricate the priceless worth or a virtue from its opposing vice without demeaning it of what makes it valuable in the first place. The fact that one can choose to be Alban Knight stands in contrast to the prophets; where one seeks to abuse the power, others choose to utilize it for a selfless end.

    Individuals like Brilluen will always exist, because individuality has a nasty habit of producing avaricious jerks. That's what one means when they say there is no light without darkness, no silhouette with a light. The magnificent of being virtuous lies in the choice of nothing merely avoiding villainy, but embracing greatness, not that one cannot literally exist without the other, because both are constants. Which essentially means it is somewhat worthless to treat them as factors that we can be forever be ridden of.

    It is a fantasy, but to quote William R. Somerset calling back to a quote by Ernerest Hemingway, "Ernest Hemingway once wrote, "The world is a fine place and worth fighting for." I agree with the second part." Thus comes the virtue of being heroic. The fight never ends, one has a choice to pursue cupidity over charity, but that's apart of being an Alban Knight, or a heroic individual in general.

    Or TL;DR: I am quite exasperated with this whole balance bull some people are proselytizing. Is it such a bad world if we all just got along? I don't think so!
  • KingofrunesKingofrunes
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,515
    Posts: 119
    Member
    edited July 15, 2018
    *Treasure Hunter shows up without being asked for*

    *Does absolutely nothing*

    *Takes a reward for a service we did not ask for, need, or was in anyway beneficial to us*


    Yeah yeah, totally nothing wrong here, Voight 2.0!

    Jerk of the year I'd have to say. Merlin at least put in effort and tried. Plus he had a lot of valuable information, shame the Knights thought he was crazy. Granted they couldn't believe the Millitean was talking to the Elder until there was so much proof contrary to the matter that they couldn't dispute it.
    I found Talvish's argument regarding balance trite. While I do agree with the concept that kindness is meaningful due to the capacity of the individual to be cruel, and that one cannot emphasize the virtues of one thing without the flaw from which it purportedly rises above, the idea that the presence of bad has to exist so that the other can is fundamentally ridiculous to me.

    It isn't that we need darkness to define light; rather, it is the ideal that we cannot eliminate either in totality anyway, not for one to balance the other in equal measure in opposing directions. This is where Talvish went wrong; he assumed his ends should be the eternal peace and happiness for all, yet that is not remotely possible. He therefore concluded that the nature of such should be the equilibrium he seeks, rather than merely accepting that this is the burden of being righteous; the fight never ends.

    It isn't that we shouldn't attempt to do so, but to realize that what we seek is an impossibility worth fighting for in the end. We can hardly extricate the priceless worth or a virtue from its opposing vice without demeaning it of what makes it valuable in the first place. The fact that one can choose to be Alban Knight stands in contrast to the prophets; where one seeks to abuse the power, others choose to utilize it for a selfless end.

    Individuals like Brilluen will always exist, because individuality has a nasty habit of producing avaricious jerks. That's what one means when they say there is no light without darkness, no silhouette with a light. The magnificent of being virtuous lies in the choice of nothing merely avoiding villainy, but embracing greatness, not that one cannot literally exist without the other, because both are constants. Which essentially means it is somewhat worthless to treat them as factors that we can be forever be ridden of.

    It is a fantasy, but to quote William R. Somerset calling back to a quote by Ernerest Hemingway, "Ernest Hemingway once wrote, "The world is a fine place and worth fighting for." I agree with the second part." Thus comes the virtue of being heroic. The fight never ends, one has a choice to pursue cupidity over charity, but that's apart of being an Alban Knight, or a heroic individual in general.

    Or TL;DR: I am quite exasperated with this whole balance bull some people are proselytizing. Is it such a bad world if we all just got along? I don't think so!

    I also agree that Talvish's thinking was flawed. However, that's why we go to stop him. Through battle and the power of FRIENDSHIP you show him that he's wrong and he accepts this and overall was very reasonable about it. He saw that he was wrong, reflected on himself and his actions, and then sought to undo the wrongs he had done.

    Due to that, Talvish still retains my respect and love. He was massively misguided, but without him, we might not have tapped into our inner powers. Talvish helped us grow just as much as we helped him.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 24,290
    Posts: 2,789
    Member
    *Treasure Hunter shows up without being asked for*

    *Does absolutely nothing*

    *Takes a reward for a service we did not ask for, need, or was in anyway beneficial to us*


    Yeah yeah, totally nothing wrong here, Voight 2.0!

    Jerk of the year I'd have to say. Merlin at least put in effort and tried. Plus he had a lot of valuable information, shame the Knights thought he was crazy. Granted they couldn't believe the Millitean was talking to the Elder until there was so much proof contrary to the matter that they couldn't dispute it.
    I found Talvish's argument regarding balance trite. While I do agree with the concept that kindness is meaningful due to the capacity of the individual to be cruel, and that one cannot emphasize the virtues of one thing without the flaw from which it purportedly rises above, the idea that the presence of bad has to exist so that the other can is fundamentally ridiculous to me.

    It isn't that we need darkness to define light; rather, it is the ideal that we cannot eliminate either in totality anyway, not for one to balance the other in equal measure in opposing directions. This is where Talvish went wrong; he assumed his ends should be the eternal peace and happiness for all, yet that is not remotely possible. He therefore concluded that the nature of such should be the equilibrium he seeks, rather than merely accepting that this is the burden of being righteous; the fight never ends.

    It isn't that we shouldn't attempt to do so, but to realize that what we seek is an impossibility worth fighting for in the end. We can hardly extricate the priceless worth or a virtue from its opposing vice without demeaning it of what makes it valuable in the first place. The fact that one can choose to be Alban Knight stands in contrast to the prophets; where one seeks to abuse the power, others choose to utilize it for a selfless end.

    Individuals like Brilluen will always exist, because individuality has a nasty habit of producing avaricious jerks. That's what one means when they say there is no light without darkness, no silhouette with a light. The magnificent of being virtuous lies in the choice of nothing merely avoiding villainy, but embracing greatness, not that one cannot literally exist without the other, because both are constants. Which essentially means it is somewhat worthless to treat them as factors that we can be forever be ridden of.

    It is a fantasy, but to quote William R. Somerset calling back to a quote by Ernerest Hemingway, "Ernest Hemingway once wrote, "The world is a fine place and worth fighting for." I agree with the second part." Thus comes the virtue of being heroic. The fight never ends, one has a choice to pursue cupidity over charity, but that's apart of being an Alban Knight, or a heroic individual in general.

    Or TL;DR: I am quite exasperated with this whole balance bull some people are proselytizing. Is it such a bad world if we all just got along? I don't think so!

    I also agree that Talvish's thinking was flawed. However, that's why we go to stop him. Through battle and the power of FRIENDSHIP you show him that he's wrong and he accepts this and overall was very reasonable about it. He saw that he was wrong, reflected on himself and his actions, and then sought to undo the wrongs he had done.

    Due to that, Talvish still retains my respect and love. He was massively misguided, but without him, we might not have tapped into our inner powers. Talvish helped us grow just as much as we helped him.

    No, I actually loved Talvish and Altam here, but I am getting REAL tired of this "Balance is great'" or "Balance is needed" ideal. It sounds nice because of connotations, but it is akin the the "natural is better" fallacy; one is assuming a trait is inherently good in of itself, and arguing everything the trait encompasses as being better.

    This is naive as it is pervasive belief I want laid to rest, because it is one of those things society often emphasizes as great, but neglects to inform us why, leading to a bunch of people accepting it without much thought, based on the glowing connotations we unfairly associate with this or that.
  • KingofrunesKingofrunes
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    No, I actually loved Talvish and Altam here, but I am getting REAL tired of this "Balance is great'" or "Balance is needed" ideal. It sounds nice because of connotations, but it is akin the the "natural is better" fallacy; one is assuming a trait is inherently good in of itself, and arguing everything the trait encompasses as being better.

    This is naive as it is pervasive belief I want laid to rest, because it is one of those things society often emphasizes as great, but neglects to inform us why, leading to a bunch of people accepting it without much thought, based on the glowing connotations we unfairly associate with this or that.

    I disagree. In all the balance stories I've seen, there's been a force that counters that notion. However, I also follow the God of Balance in another game I play (Guthix). It's a problem if there's too much evil in the world, however, I don't think one can hope to truly eliminate evil. So the best one can do is to achieve balance in that regard. If one could eradicate evil that would be different.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 24,290
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    edited July 15, 2018
    No, I actually loved Talvish and Altam here, but I am getting REAL tired of this "Balance is great'" or "Balance is needed" ideal. It sounds nice because of connotations, but it is akin the the "natural is better" fallacy; one is assuming a trait is inherently good in of itself, and arguing everything the trait encompasses as being better.

    This is naive as it is pervasive belief I want laid to rest, because it is one of those things society often emphasizes as great, but neglects to inform us why, leading to a bunch of people accepting it without much thought, based on the glowing connotations we unfairly associate with this or that.

    I disagree. In all the balance stories I've seen, there's been a force that counters that notion. However, I also follow the God of Balance in another game I play (Guthix). It's a problem if there's too much evil in the world, however, I don't think one can hope to truly eliminate evil. So the best one can do is to achieve balance in that regard. If one could eradicate evil that would be different.

    Balance implies evil is necessary to perform and to exist. I disagree entirely. What you are discussing is what I said previously, but the notion we should not have too much of anything without its opposite is fallacious in nature, and is a case by case basis.

    Should have is not the equivalent to would have.

    I ask you this. Do individuals like Ted Bundy or Pol Pot need to exist, or would they invariably have existed anyway in some shape or form? This is a loaded question, but this emphasizes my point regarding how I perceive "balance". The logic would lead to consistent applications I find unsavory.

    Would we have to save individuals of low moral principles if there is far too much good hearted people in the world? Do we have to kill those who are a blessing to this world in order to preserve balance?

    I believe I am misunderstanding your viewpoint, but where lies the inherent good in balance, or rather, how do you define a "Good" balance?
  • GeluberserkGeluberserk
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,470
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    edited July 15, 2018
    Posting my late and long opinion (that no one really asked for) after thinking about it over the release and weekend. I personally believe G21 Part 2 was filled with a lot of untapped potential. Also I might be echoing some opinions in this thread, I apologize in advance. TL;DR at the bottom.

    I think the story was pretty decent as far as MMO's go. There's nothing to write home about but it wasn't poorly done either, the twist was interesting and I felt relatively engaged throughout the story. Seeing Altam's growth was nice (although his continuous brown-nosing was excessive), Llywelyn's ability of just "knowing" things was a bit shallow to cover up plot holes, and Talvish's motivations were understandable given his story. My biggest gripe with the story, however, was the lack of a satisfying conclusion and, in my opinion, will be the biggest shortcoming of this update. The conclusion is almost one of the most important parts to a story since it wraps up everything and presents it to you in what is generally the thing most memorable things of a story. The conclusion was basically a reset of everyone's character growth except Talvish is missing and everyone likes you. We saw nothing concrete of Altam's growth, Avelin's turmoil, or Caswyn and Pihne's relationship (in fact they kind of just got shoved off screen which was disappointing after the events of G20) and Llywelyn just exists now. I am especially disappointed at Talvish's character. He essentially resolves lifetime's of thought and meditation in mere moments and offscreen.

    Gameplay wise, I thought that the three major fights +1 were poorly implemented. To preface this, my character is relatively developed and I cleared with "minimal" troubles, but the damage scaling is incredibly punishing for newer players - I think damage should be done in percents. Tagar was poorly implemented, the radius of the red circle should have been more forgiving to increase awareness (also why is the first circle in the corner of the map? Why not somewhere in the middle?) and, in my opinion, gimmicks are not 'fun'. It isn't fun to run to a specific pillar, hit it, and hope everything goes well or do it again, that isn't to say that gimmick can't be fun, but this one was not. A larger radius would solve some of the issues I'm seeing. Doppelganger and Golem are forgettable fights where you either had no idea there were mechanics or the mechanics punished you incredibly hard (regen and running fast enough respectively). You either do or don't (have enough DPS where regen doesn't matter or run fast enough). The +1 I mentioned earlier was in reference to protecting Altam from Talvish. The timing here is too tight for no reason. There is no gameplay or fun to be had if you succeed or fail, it's a filler mechanic designed to waste your time. Lastly, there's Talvish's fight. This fight is too misleading in too many ways. Like the instructions with Altam, asking you to use Shield of Trust appears way too early as the move that kills you happens half a second after all the blades fall. Instructions for preventing Celestial Spike are unclear and the damage threshold for moving to the next phase (80%) is unforgiving when mechanics will one-shot you and damage is not percentage-based.

    Overall I thought the generation was a stronger one after coming from Shakespeare, but there were a lot of missteps that could have made this generation way more fun and memorable. I hope it's clear that these are my opinions and you're free to disagree with them!

    TL;DR Story was good until the conclusion which fell flat. Gameplay could benefit greatly from percentage based attacks and HP. Fights need much clearer instructions that are timed correctly. Overall generation was decent but flawed.
    Imaizumi
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
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    No, I actually loved Talvish and Altam here, but I am getting REAL tired of this "Balance is great'" or "Balance is needed" ideal. It sounds nice because of connotations, but it is akin the the "natural is better" fallacy; one is assuming a trait is inherently good in of itself, and arguing everything the trait encompasses as being better.

    This is naive as it is pervasive belief I want laid to rest, because it is one of those things society often emphasizes as great, but neglects to inform us why, leading to a bunch of people accepting it without much thought, based on the glowing connotations we unfairly associate with this or that.

    I disagree. In all the balance stories I've seen, there's been a force that counters that notion. However, I also follow the God of Balance in another game I play (Guthix). It's a problem if there's too much evil in the world, however, I don't think one can hope to truly eliminate evil. So the best one can do is to achieve balance in that regard. If one could eradicate evil that would be different.

    Balance implies evil is necessary to perform and to exist. I disagree entirely. What you are discussing is what I said previously, but the notion we should not have too much of anything without its opposite is fallacious in nature, and is a case by case basis.

    Should have is not the equivalent to would have.

    I ask you this. Do individuals like Ted Bundy or Pol Pot need to exist, or would they invariably have existed anyway in some shape or form? This is a loaded question, but this emphasizes my point regarding how I perceive "balance". The logic would lead to consistent applications I find unsavory.

    Would we have to save individuals of low moral principles if there is far too much good hearted people in the world? Do we have to kill those who are a blessing to this world in order to preserve balance?

    I believe I am misunderstanding your viewpoint, but where lies the inherent good in balance, or rather, how do you define a "Good" balance?

    I think you're missing the point about Talvish's reasoning. He's been alive for so long and subjected to so much evils of the world that his world view became warped and twisted. Worst of all, he assumes that because his power with Aton had not diminished even if he took such actions means that it was all according to Aton's will. Talvish later confesses to you that he was created as a tool, a sword to Aton, and that he never really felt the need to think for himself besides fulfilling the will of Aton. He didn't realize that he had free will and Aton let him have free reign with his power to do with as he pleases. Remember this, Talvish cannot truly empathize with the Knights or any of his descendants because of his origins. He received power and direction from the big man himself and in many ways, is an existence very much similar to the Millitian's in his great power and long life span. His journey of self discovery is a parallel to the Millitian's own adventures. Like the Millitian he was initially given a mandate to protect the world by a deity (Aton for Talvish and Morrighan for the Millitian) and achieved great power as the champions of the gods. Then through out his adventures he would be subjected to trials, loss, and tribulations, much like the Millitian his optimism and outlook would have eroded, leaving his views to be warped. This is why the battle between the Millitian and Talvish was not a duel to the death like other bosses. Talvish was a reflection of the kind of view the Millitian could've come to, both beings capable of both good and evil and how they deal with that. Talvish sought to perfectly balance misery and and happiness while the Millitian choose to pursue happiness in spite of misery.

    When the Millitian obtained Divinity as well, Talvish realized something. He was wrong, all the atrocities he committed was not in the will of Aton, it was his own. The Millitian wielding both out worldly power and Erinn's power while having a completely different goal and mindset showed him that Aton's will was not as imposed on him as he thought. He broke off the the fight because he was reconciling with the fact he followed his own will, and that he didn't like what he became in that pursuit. This is why he leaves at the end, with the knowledge that he has his own will, he left to find himself, to build himself again, something that HE wants to be rather than the expectations of a Aton that has long since let him reign.

    This is why I still enjoy Talvish as a character and I can't hate him at all. He did what he thought was the will of his God and when the world view shattered, he was able to stop before going too far and look at his mistakes and is taking steps to correct them.

    Yorozuya
  • WeepingJesterWeepingJester
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    GTCvActium wrote: »

    Talvish later confesses to you that he was created as a tool, a sword to Aton, and that he never really felt the need to think for himself besides fulfilling the will of Aton.

    Once a tool, always a tool. That is until you decide to stop being one.

    No, I actually loved Talvish and Altam here, but I am getting REAL tired of this "Balance is great'" or "Balance is needed" ideal. It sounds nice because of connotations, but it is akin the the "natural is better" fallacy; one is assuming a trait is inherently good in of itself, and arguing everything the trait encompasses as being better.

    This is naive as it is pervasive belief I want laid to rest, because it is one of those things society often emphasizes as great, but neglects to inform us why, leading to a bunch of people accepting it without much thought, based on the glowing connotations we unfairly associate with this or that.

    I don't think you understand what fallacy is. By the way, " With every reaction, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Because energy. Energy, exists from "Positive" and "negative" atoms, in which the energy results in force ->movement-> life. Thus balance. That is just the way our universe works. If everyone stayed alive, the earth does not expand. Everyone will be dead. You are getting no where with your mind of thinking that points to something like Nirvana. Well that isn't our universe. Also, i'll point out one more thing -population control.

    "society often emphasizes as great, but neglects to inform us why" Or MAYBE, you just haven't been thinking.




    Thoughts on g21? just one: Tryhard.

  • HaruHime20HaruHime20
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    This was my fave gen!!!
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    GTCvActium wrote: »

    I think you're missing the point about Talvish's reasoning. He's been alive for so long and subjected to so much evils of the world that his world view became warped and twisted. Worst of all, he assumes that because his power with Aton had not diminished even if he took such actions means that it was all according to Aton's will. Talvish later confesses to you that he was created as a tool, a sword to Aton, and that he never really felt the need to think for himself besides fulfilling the will of Aton. He didn't realize that he had free will and Aton let him have free reign with his power to do with as he pleases. Remember this, Talvish cannot truly empathize with the Knights or any of his descendants because of his origins. He received power and direction from the big man himself and in many ways, is an existence very much similar to the Millitian's in his great power and long life span. His journey of self discovery is a parallel to the Millitian's own adventures. Like the Millitian he was initially given a mandate to protect the world by a deity (Aton for Talvish and Morrighan for the Millitian) and achieved great power as the champions of the gods. Then through out his adventures he would be subjected to trials, loss, and tribulations, much like the Millitian his optimism and outlook would have eroded, leaving his views to be warped. This is why the battle between the Millitian and Talvish was not a duel to the death like other bosses. Talvish was a reflection of the kind of view the Millitian could've come to, both beings capable of both good and evil and how they deal with that. Talvish sought to perfectly balance misery and and happiness while the Millitian choose to pursue happiness in spite of misery.

    When the Millitian obtained Divinity as well, Talvish realized something. He was wrong, all the atrocities he committed was not in the will of Aton, it was his own. The Millitian wielding both out worldly power and Erinn's power while having a completely different goal and mindset showed him that Aton's will was not as imposed on him as he thought. He broke off the the fight because he was reconciling with the fact he followed his own will, and that he didn't like what he became in that pursuit. This is why he leaves at the end, with the knowledge that he has his own will, he left to find himself, to build himself again, something that HE wants to be rather than the expectations of a Aton that has long since let him reign.

    This is why I still enjoy Talvish as a character and I can't hate him at all. He did what he thought was the will of his God and when the world view shattered, he was able to stop before going too far and look at his mistakes and is taking steps to correct them.

    I am explaining my dislike of the view on the consideration that the audience is suppose to believe he has a point; yet the rationale he argues reeks of a hackneyed and vague circle jerk concerning balance, which is far too pervasive a belief in society for something that is unquestionably accepted as it is.

    I like Talvish as a character, I really do. Much of this boils down to another topic regarding ethics; if a celestial deity who controls all aspects demands one to do something, and claims it is right, on what grounds do we have to contest it morally? To this point, Talvish cannot understand why we were allowed the powers we were, in contrast to his own.

    In a world where knowingly permitting something is itself a display of Atom Cimeni's will, this blew Talvish world's apart, so I agree, and I love this part.

    I can understand greatly the viewpoint, but I cannot sympathize with overused and generic motivational tropes. However, I may have misunderstood the balance thing to be a display of "Villain has a point". Much of my denigration boils down to my perceived belief of what the writers wanted to say, which is me surmising on the view I take to the story.

    It makes for a tragic, understandable villainy, but not a reasonable one.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    edited July 16, 2018
    GTCvActium wrote: »

    Talvish later confesses to you that he was created as a tool, a sword to Aton, and that he never really felt the need to think for himself besides fulfilling the will of Aton.

    Once a tool, always a tool. That is until you decide to stop being one.

    No, I actually loved Talvish and Altam here, but I am getting REAL tired of this "Balance is great'" or "Balance is needed" ideal. It sounds nice because of connotations, but it is akin the the "natural is better" fallacy; one is assuming a trait is inherently good in of itself, and arguing everything the trait encompasses as being better.

    This is naive as it is pervasive belief I want laid to rest, because it is one of those things society often emphasizes as great, but neglects to inform us why, leading to a bunch of people accepting it without much thought, based on the glowing connotations we unfairly associate with this or that.

    I don't think you understand what fallacy is. By the way, " With every reaction, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Because energy. Energy, exists from "Positive" and "negative" atoms, in which the energy results in force ->movement-> life. Thus balance. That is just the way our universe works. If everyone stayed alive, the earth does not expand. Everyone will be dead. You are getting no where with your mind of thinking that points to something like Nirvana. Well that isn't our universe. Also, i'll point out one more thing -population control.

    "society often emphasizes as great, but neglects to inform us why" Or MAYBE, you just haven't been thinking.




    Thoughts on g21? just one: Tryhard.

    The fallacy here is assuming that everything classed under such a definition is great, generally introduced with a lack of explanation for why said classification is great in the first place.

    That being said, I cannot say I understand what I suspiciously believe is drivel. I mean, what is the point of the bold? You just seemingly stated a bunch of nonsense on the notion I am suppose to understand, yet I find little relation, or a point rather than merely contesting my own.

    Was Talvish attempting a mass culling? I was under the notion he was trying to summon an alternate God via sacrifice of the Milletian, either as a surrogate body or an offering.

    Edit: @Kingofrunes Sorry for being a bit combative and insensitive. I read over what I typed a day or two ago, and found it inappropriate and aggressive. My apologies.