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Can we not immediately scream for nerfs?

Comments

  • FOXAssassinFOXAssassin
    Mabinogi Rep: 840
    Posts: 36
    Member


    Its not that people feel a sense of entitlement, its a sense of fairness, going back to the earlier posts example take the dungeon revamp
    What did they do? Added a 0 to all enemy damage rolls and add two 0 to all enemies health, its an exaggeration, yes, but BARELY so
    The results? New players cannot complete Alby Normal, the same dungeon they just completed in the tutorial without hitting a damage sponge,. Late game players ignore the dungeons due to not being fiscally viable, And dungeons are even deader than before

    (I've seen new players beat the dungeons post-revamp. The key is not going in alone anymore, and forcing teamplay with other beginners.)

    So that's why they took the cap from 8 to 4. Teamplay...sure.
  • FayeKaibaFayeKaiba
    Mabinogi Rep: 10,500
    Posts: 881
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    I remember the days when content was hard and people didn't cry for nerfs. Honestly people. The update has been out for less than 24 hours. Back in my day we took the time to come up with tactics, we died, we tried again, we died again and kept on trying. There is also no reason to be rushing the content right away if you feel like it is too hard, the update is not going anywhere so maybe take the time to get stronger or just wait until more people come up with easier ways.
    GretaSirRyuLiberateZephyrmaruNeroyBuffalosRadiant DawnlingyaoNaomii66Vitulaand 1 other.
  • PlatinaKokiPlatinaKoki
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,505
    Posts: 907
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    edited July 13, 2018
    Buffalos wrote: »
    *Arguably easy Generation comes out* "UGGGGH I wish devCAT would give us any sort of CHALLENGE"
    *Arguably hard Generation comes out* "UGGGGH I wish devCAT would stop making things soo hard"
    Cool to know that's still an issue with the community here.

    Use some actual damage mitigation strategies if you're getting one shot: defense with a shield does absolute wonders with most of the attacks. Switch to Neanheim demi-god for that extra damage buffer if you have to.
    Watch and learn visual cues of the bosses, because they sure as heck have some really long animations that let you move out of their attack range. If you're noticing you're still getting hit by an AoE, trying walking behind the monster instead of away from it: a few of their attacks are front facing only.
    And actually read the white text pop ups that give hints to you on how to beat stuff instead of trying to face roll this content.

    Its not the "difficulty" that people are complaining about.

    Its the crappy programming not working correctly. Also, that "white text" pop up can be replaced with any other kind of white pop up, like "Transformation will end in 10 seconds", "Awakening of Light will end in 10 seconds", "Critical Hit!" "Eweca has disappeared", "Eweca has appeared", "You cannot use this skill for another x seconds".
    FOXAssassinImaizumiTwelieRukiasakura
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,110
    Posts: 661
    Member
    Looking back at the really old Generations this is actually considered Upper middle in terms of difficulty. For a look into something that is horribly difficult, look no further than G3 with G3 era players. On average the dungeon took people several hours to complete, and that's with a party of 3 people. By comparison, these battles are actually much easier than the challenges the players of certain gen's specific era had to face. In fact, there's nothing exactly new when you go in. Remember, this Gen isn't for a completely new person to run, ITS THE CULMINATION OF 20 GENERATIONS. Glas had super regeneration, the Prince of Partholon had an instant death attack, the demigod doppelganger had damage reflection and clone summons, Cromm Cruiach was a beast of a tank and damager. So no, this is not a spoon fed generation with a reassuring "You're strong! Really!" message, this is Mabi's original, "learn or die" mentality. This is partly why I hated that they nerfed the older gens, shortening them and generally lowering the difficulty, people need to learn how to fight mechanically focused bosses over trying to over power them with brute force. For the record, even as a human, I didn't use FH in face to face, I actually used Fighter and punched him to death.
    SirRyuKingofrunesLiberateZephyrmaruImaizumilingyaoVitula
  • LeineiLeinei
    Mabinogi Rep: 14,655
    Posts: 2,287
    Member
    Anakym wrote: »
    And i still Can´t find how to free the knights. It´s like the silvan dragon mission all over again XD like how i was supossed to know i need to use the old regular def skill i failed that one many times becouse of that! XD

    You just have to beat at the crystals like the ones people get stuck in in the Girgashiy missions.
    Anakym
  • LiberateLiberate
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,915
    Posts: 137
    Member
    edited July 13, 2018
    FayeKaiba wrote: »
    I remember the days when content was hard and people didn't cry for nerfs. Honestly people. The update has been out for less than 24 hours. Back in my day we took the time to come up with tactics, we died, we tried again, we died again and kept on trying. There is also no reason to be rushing the content right away if you feel like it is too hard, the update is not going anywhere so maybe take the time to get stronger or just wait until more people come up with easier ways.

    Not to mention a lot of older generations took majority of players several weeks and also months to complete. When you also exclude the time gating on receiving quests and entering areas, the dungeons themselves required a lot of preparation and needed a team of players that were reliable. Even then and after all the detailed guides, they were still difficult and took several retries because minor slip ups would result in a team wipe.
    Zephyrmaru
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,110
    Posts: 661
    Member
    Liberate wrote: »
    FayeKaiba wrote: »
    I remember the days when content was hard and people didn't cry for nerfs. Honestly people. The update has been out for less than 24 hours. Back in my day we took the time to come up with tactics, we died, we tried again, we died again and kept on trying. There is also no reason to be rushing the content right away if you feel like it is too hard, the update is not going anywhere so maybe take the time to get stronger or just wait until more people come up with easier ways.

    Not to mention a lot of older generations took majority of players several weeks and also months to complete. When you also exclude the time gating on receiving quests and entering areas, the dungeons themselves required a lot of preparation and needed a team of players that were reliable. Even then and after all the detailed guides, they were still difficult and took several retries because minor slip ups would result in a team wipe.

    The older gens were made to challenge players of that era. With all the new skills, power boost and even mechanical changes, the difficulty for those quests dropped to almost nothing. As one of the few people that still remember what an absolute NIGHTMARE Glas was to G1 era players, it's nice to see something reminding me of the old days.
    fennixfox
  • LiberateLiberate
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,915
    Posts: 137
    Member
    GTCvActium wrote: »
    The older gens were made to challenge players of that era. With all the new skills, power boost and even mechanical changes, the difficulty for those quests dropped to almost nothing. As one of the few people that still remember what an absolute NIGHTMARE Glas was to G1 era players, it's nice to see something reminding me of the old days.

    I sadly couldn't reach to Glas during those times because I struggled to complete the quest for Goro's ring. But, I do remember the nightmares of G3, and took several dozen retries for infiltration (when it was still 3 floors and not nerfed down to 1), and then the insane finale afterwards.
    fennixfox
  • LeineiLeinei
    Mabinogi Rep: 14,655
    Posts: 2,287
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    edited July 13, 2018
    We also didn't have nearly as many talents or destinies back then and the battle system was a lot more rigid. XD
    Veylaine
  • VeylaineVeylaine
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,850
    Posts: 348
    Member
    Trythis wrote: »

    Also if you're not having displacement anchor rushes I-frame is another good trick to use.

    I wish my timing was better a guild member told me he used that I-frame to dodge the Crusader Silence.
  • KouyioueKouyioue
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,395
    Posts: 380
    Member
    edited July 13, 2018
    I got to sit and watch my boyfriend use lance charge on the big blue lady for 40 minutes

    By the way, that mission has a time limit of 85 minutes or so

    I assume it would take nearly the entire timelimit or very nearly close to it if someone less fortunate were to go in with all rank A knight skills or lesser.

    For comparison: we had master, so all rank 1 knight skills, and a (normal) fully upgraded LionClaw lance from cenae meadows with no enchants

    ######

    As for the golem, well he detects the character way too fast for a human to evade, so our trick was to just gather 15 of the chain attacks, and jump all the way to the portal.
    BlissfulkillFOXAssassin
  • Donk3yDonk3y
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,050
    Posts: 122
    Member
    After it took me 75 min to beat the doppleganger, I have some strats to share with you:
    - Kill all the clones. If you just wail on the doppleganger with the clones still alive, you only deal ~30-40% of the damage. That is to say, if you kill all the clones, you effectively double your damage against him, compared to when he doesn't have clones.
    - Soul link your pet and keep him on aggro on the doppleganger.
    - When he uses shadow spirit, if you use divine link again, you will cancel his shadow spirit.

    Hope this all helps
  • SollSoll
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,925
    Posts: 123
    Member
    For tagar, i simply hit her sparingly and used the time frame after she had used one of the scythe attacks to deal in some more damage. otherwise, elf running + march song to evade the burrow attack.

    At the doppel boss, divine link with a strong pet is your best asset. Hit the switches always.

    For the final boss, few tips:
    -Youcannot summon pets in there, so stock up on balloons, potions and other things you need in your inventory instead beforehand. Preparation goes a long way in this one.
    -Use shield of trust after the judgement blades are loaded/while they are crashing down, since it's the red aura after them that kills you. Aim your camera up at him to see the blades properly once you see him load them.

    - You gotta drag his HP down to 79-78% to trigger the cutscene and transformation.
    - Once Transed, keep timing the hammer right and check your HP, since the counter resets if you untrans/die. Use Nova obliteration when you have a good amount of divine blast going (like 10-15 minimum), you'll deal more damage with it. The boss uses lightning rod, but has a crappy aim with it.
  • PlatinaKokiPlatinaKoki
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,505
    Posts: 907
    Member
    edited July 13, 2018
    What a meme of a thread.

    I'm glad to know that I've been here to witness the most explosive, toxic thread to date.

    You think THIS is the most toxic thread?

    I've seen far worse here.
    GTCvActium wrote: »
    Looking back at the really old Generations this is actually considered Upper middle in terms of difficulty. For a look into something that is horribly difficult, look no further than G3 with G3 era players. On average the dungeon took people several hours to complete, and that's with a party of 3 people. By comparison, these battles are actually much easier than the challenges the players of certain gen's specific era had to face. In fact, there's nothing exactly new when you go in. Remember, this Gen isn't for a completely new person to run, ITS THE CULMINATION OF 20 GENERATIONS. Glas had super regeneration, the Prince of Partholon had an instant death attack, the demigod doppelganger had damage reflection and clone summons, Cromm Cruiach was a beast of a tank and damager. So no, this is not a spoon fed generation with a reassuring "You're strong! Really!" message, this is Mabi's original, "learn or die" mentality. This is partly why I hated that they nerfed the older gens, shortening them and generally lowering the difficulty, people need to learn how to fight mechanically focused bosses over trying to over power them with brute force. For the record, even as a human, I didn't use FH in face to face, I actually used Fighter and punched him to death.
    Not all the nerfing of the previous Gens were bad. I'm glad they nerfed Ideal Types. Especially when I frequently dc'd and had to apologize to whoever was being an ideal type for me
  • LeineiLeinei
    Mabinogi Rep: 14,655
    Posts: 2,287
    Member
    What a meme of a thread.

    I'm glad to know that I've been here to witness the most explosive, toxic thread to date.

    You think THIS is the most toxic thread?

    I've seen far worse here.
    GTCvActium wrote: »
    Looking back at the really old Generations this is actually considered Upper middle in terms of difficulty. For a look into something that is horribly difficult, look no further than G3 with G3 era players. On average the dungeon took people several hours to complete, and that's with a party of 3 people. By comparison, these battles are actually much easier than the challenges the players of certain gen's specific era had to face. In fact, there's nothing exactly new when you go in. Remember, this Gen isn't for a completely new person to run, ITS THE CULMINATION OF 20 GENERATIONS. Glas had super regeneration, the Prince of Partholon had an instant death attack, the demigod doppelganger had damage reflection and clone summons, Cromm Cruiach was a beast of a tank and damager. So no, this is not a spoon fed generation with a reassuring "You're strong! Really!" message, this is Mabi's original, "learn or die" mentality. This is partly why I hated that they nerfed the older gens, shortening them and generally lowering the difficulty, people need to learn how to fight mechanically focused bosses over trying to over power them with brute force. For the record, even as a human, I didn't use FH in face to face, I actually used Fighter and punched him to death.
    Not all the nerfing of the previous Gens were bad. I'm glad they nerfed Ideal Types. Especially when I frequently dc'd and had to apologize to whoever was being an ideal type for me

    Oh man I forgot about the old Ideal system! That was kinda hard to find someone for each person...
    fennixfox
  • ZerukanZerukan
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,280
    Posts: 211
    Member
    There's an incredible difference in something being a challenging hard that feels accomplishing to progress in and figure out how to handle the fight. Then there's a hard fight simply made hard, with no sense of progression, and the mechanics are so badly designed that it's just not fun. And the latter is exactly what the g21 fights are. There's no sense of progression in the fights, each one follow the same path of. "We have the ability to one shot you, and really the only tactic is final hit until dead" and that's hardly anything fun. Especially for anyone playing a giant or elf.

    Sure there is satisfaction in beating these fights even if they are poorly made, but it's still not a good thing. Take FF14's Ultimate Coil of Bahamut, or Ultima Weapon Ultimate for example. Two of the hardest designed fights in the game, specifically made to be the hardest fights in the game. They all have mechanics that work a certain way, players have to figure out how to handle them, and how to defeat both bosses. Sure there's a lot of death and pain involved in doing such, but the fights have progression. Each death teaches you what you're supposed to not do at some points, and it'll help you get further and further in the fights until you eventually clear! Hooray!

    G21 lacks all of this in their fights and honestly each fight just gets more and more tedious, especially the Tagar fight in part 2. I really did want to continue on and complete the story, but having this fight be so utterly difficult and completely unfun just had me asked to get spoiled on the rest so I could stop playing the game again.

    So yes, the fights should definitely be nerfed, tweaked at even so they're actually fun to do while having a challenging aspect to it instead of just this... 'false hard' of a difficulty.
    JazmynLongSlyFOXAssassin
  • GretaGreta
    Mabinogi Rep: 45,560
    Posts: 6,745
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    Leinei wrote: »
    What a meme of a thread.

    I'm glad to know that I've been here to witness the most explosive, toxic thread to date.

    You think THIS is the most toxic thread?

    I've seen far worse here.
    GTCvActium wrote: »
    Looking back at the really old Generations this is actually considered Upper middle in terms of difficulty. For a look into something that is horribly difficult, look no further than G3 with G3 era players. On average the dungeon took people several hours to complete, and that's with a party of 3 people. By comparison, these battles are actually much easier than the challenges the players of certain gen's specific era had to face. In fact, there's nothing exactly new when you go in. Remember, this Gen isn't for a completely new person to run, ITS THE CULMINATION OF 20 GENERATIONS. Glas had super regeneration, the Prince of Partholon had an instant death attack, the demigod doppelganger had damage reflection and clone summons, Cromm Cruiach was a beast of a tank and damager. So no, this is not a spoon fed generation with a reassuring "You're strong! Really!" message, this is Mabi's original, "learn or die" mentality. This is partly why I hated that they nerfed the older gens, shortening them and generally lowering the difficulty, people need to learn how to fight mechanically focused bosses over trying to over power them with brute force. For the record, even as a human, I didn't use FH in face to face, I actually used Fighter and punched him to death.
    Not all the nerfing of the previous Gens were bad. I'm glad they nerfed Ideal Types. Especially when I frequently dc'd and had to apologize to whoever was being an ideal type for me

    Oh man I forgot about the old Ideal system! That was kinda hard to find someone for each person...

    How it was in old times? :o
  • asnscorpioasnscorpio
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,135
    Posts: 356
    Member
    You had to be in a party or next to the person with specific faces/eyes/hair color or style had to be there to clear the ideals. People made characters to get paid for doing so as well.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 23,900
    Posts: 2,759
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    edited July 13, 2018
    Greta wrote: »

    How it was in old times? :o

    You had to find a milletian player with the exact features an NPC asked for, I believe. The problem being that these requests were incredibly specific, and nearly guaranteed no player would naturally have them, which led people to creating alternate characters for the sole purpose of fulfilling these requirements for themselves and others

    One would have to do this several times for several different NPCs, but it seems terribly frustrating.
  • asnscorpioasnscorpio
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,135
    Posts: 356
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    The generation 1 was actually paid content. If you did not have premium service you could not do Generation 1-3. You could make a spirit weapon, but you could not talk to it or feed it unless you had premium service....and they had a Spirit weapon leveling event for EVERYONE!!!

    Generation 1 TNN was only accessible on Saturdays. There was no rebirths when you went against Glas, so the highest level was probably level 70-90. The level grind was mostly alby intermediate for 4 or ciar basic/intermediate. The highest shield was Kite shield and the highest 1 hand damage was the mace. Your armor was the Moon armors....and your highest damage was the 2 hand /claymore.

    So....taking all that into consideration...….I mean...how many people could clear all that content ….WITHOUT A REBIRTH?

    Oh and the G1-3 was released 1-2 years after it was out for the premium service people....then they finally got rid of the requirement to play the generation content.