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Can we not immediately scream for nerfs?

Comments

  • PlatinaKokiPlatinaKoki
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    edited July 18, 2018
    For Doppelganger, it seems like going back and fixing the G10 final ("fix" in that they re-add the second stage, where you fight the Doppelganger, while you yourself being able to use Awakening/Spear of Light/Fury of Light) might be helpful, cause that's how I tackled it.
    ForeRunia wrote: »
    Alshian wrote: »
    G22 is prob going to be much, MUCH harder than what we had been through this Generation.

    Most people complaining won't even be able to do G22 on release. 5000k cumulative level requirement. If this alone doesn't show that they want to create content that gives you a reason to progress, idk what will. Perhaps the fault of the Alban Knights was being able to access it on a fresh character, as it implies you should be able to do it somewhat easily.
    Korea updated their beginner benefits again; much quicker to get to 5k now.
  • TrythisTrythis
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    @PlatinaKoki

    That's true but they still have a point notice they said Fresh character like fully new only rbed about once character

    Also it isn't daily rbs the whole ride, 1000-2999 is rbing every 2 days if you don't believe me check this post out.

    http://forums.mabinogi.nexon.net/discussion/16753/new-kr-update-to-help-newbies/p1
    They didn't specify but I'm assuming on the chart means 3000-4999 rb every 4 days
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    They more or less need an adjustment to stats, not to mechanics, the latter of which should clearly be explained in some regard. That is my view. Talvish was the most fair, while Tagar did a bit too much damage, with Doppelganger being the worst. Level adjustments when?

    That being said, I am an awful player; yet, I found learning the fights fun once I figured them out.
    fennixfox
  • ForeRuniaForeRunia
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    They more or less need an adjustment to stats, not to mechanics, the latter of which should clearly be explained in some regard. That is my view. Talvish was the most fair, while Tagar did a bit too much damage, with Doppelganger being the worst. Level adjustments when?

    That being said, I am an awful player; yet, I found learning the fights fun once I figured them out.

    It's ridiculous that I'm 2.6k and I'm expected to be able to fight something just as well as my husband that's 15k. The fights weren't even amusing to him with how easy they were, he didn't even know the doppelganger summoned clones because he killed it that quickly. Someone recently 1k would have a lot of trouble, although if they made it this far they've probably got the core of everything they need to get it done. Doesn't make it any less tedious, but it seems the scaling could use a 4th level of difficulty if they were to adjust it.
  • MrPlinkettMrPlinkett
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    edited July 19, 2018
    ForeRunia wrote: »
    They more or less need an adjustment to stats, not to mechanics, the latter of which should clearly be explained in some regard. That is my view. Talvish was the most fair, while Tagar did a bit too much damage, with Doppelganger being the worst. Level adjustments when?

    That being said, I am an awful player; yet, I found learning the fights fun once I figured them out.

    It's ridiculous that I'm 2.6k and I'm expected to be able to fight something just as well as my husband that's 15k. The fights weren't even amusing to him with how easy they were, he didn't even know the doppelganger summoned clones because he killed it that quickly. Someone recently 1k would have a lot of trouble, although if they made it this far they've probably got the core of everything they need to get it done. Doesn't make it any less tedious, but it seems the scaling could use a 4th level of difficulty if they were to adjust it.

    I've beaten G21 at around 2.9k-3k total level on patch day and I only had a real problem with Tagar's hitbox for the pillars. It also depends on what skills and gear you have too and how you use demi/trans, like having divine link up at all times really helps with Tagar and the Doppleganger. It also depends on whatever you're a human or not because FH'ing those two really helps, especially with divine link up. I pretty much went through this as a human using FH as much as possible and chaincasting firebolt if the boss is being aggressive. You don't want to do this with skillsets like puppeteer or advanced ones like gunner and chain slash unless you have proper stats and gear.

    To be honest I thought the Doppleganger was the easiest fight.
  • KatzoneKatzone
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    To be honest, as a newcomer to Mabi i wish these fights could be scaled to player CP.
    Finished G20 easily at around 500 total level, and G21 first part at 600 (with the help of a friend cause she had more skill fighting Hasidim than me :) ).
    As for part 2 at around 1300 total, Tagar would one shot me with every hit, so i had to dodge her attack perfectly, Craeg was too easy to be called a boss, doppelganger went down in about 2 FH + pala, but i can't manage to get Talvish under 80% with enough time left for the rest of the fight.
  • ForeRuniaForeRunia
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    MrPlinkett wrote: »
    I've beaten G21 at around 2.9k-3k total level on patch day and I only had a real problem with Tagar's hitbox for the pillars. It also depends on what skills and gear you have too and how you use demi/trans, like having divine link up at all times really helps with Tagar and the Doppleganger. It also depends on whatever you're a human or not because FH'ing those two really helps, especially with divine link up. I pretty much went through this as a human using FH as much as possible and chaincasting firebolt if the boss is being aggressive. You don't want to do this with skillsets like puppeteer or advanced ones like gunner and chain slash unless you have proper stats and gear.

    To be honest I thought the Doppleganger was the easiest fight.

    Your gear doesn't even need to be that advanced. I have nothing reforged or enchanted. No level 200 pet, think the highest one is around 50, and my Divine Link is R6. Though the min-maxing DEX I did may contribute to that.
    fennixfox
  • GTCvActiumGTCvActium
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    They should really just enforce players to have to progress through the story linearly from G1 all the way to the latest Gen. While the plots are largely self contained they still do have call backs and references to previous experiences so it would first build up a much better narrative. There's also the fact that the story in linear order acts like an extended tutorial teaching the person the various aspects of the game, like combat, boss monsters, special skills, special powers (transformation), and other mechanics and practices. It also offers a timeline of all the changes and and progression that game has gone through. Plus it teaches you about things that certain bosses could use that you would almost never encounter is normal over world combat like instant kill moves, mechanics bosses, and boss-only skills. There's also the benefit that the story in linear progression is actually a decently made difficulty curve. After Chapter 1 you'll have access to the racial transformation which will help out in later Generations to get you out of a pinch and the long time and scope of the story missions will give you time to learn, grow, and adapt. So yeah, enforce players to progress through the story before they can touch the latest stuff, after all, they were made to challenge characters of that era.
  • MrPlinkettMrPlinkett
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    ForeRunia wrote: »
    MrPlinkett wrote: »
    I've beaten G21 at around 2.9k-3k total level on patch day and I only had a real problem with Tagar's hitbox for the pillars. It also depends on what skills and gear you have too and how you use demi/trans, like having divine link up at all times really helps with Tagar and the Doppleganger. It also depends on whatever you're a human or not because FH'ing those two really helps, especially with divine link up. I pretty much went through this as a human using FH as much as possible and chaincasting firebolt if the boss is being aggressive. You don't want to do this with skillsets like puppeteer or advanced ones like gunner and chain slash unless you have proper stats and gear.

    To be honest I thought the Doppleganger was the easiest fight.

    Your gear doesn't even need to be that advanced. I have nothing reforged or enchanted. No level 200 pet, think the highest one is around 50, and my Divine Link is R6. Though the min-maxing DEX I did may contribute to that.

    Beam sabers and chaincasting firebolt wands aren't exactly that advanced though, they do fine without enchants or reforges.
  • OpalthiraOpalthira
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    Level 960 CC+4 Tribolt (worth about 1mil thats cheap as hell)
    No problems with any of the bosses just heavily exploited them to win.
    Which is what you are supposed to do in video games anyway.
    Exploit weaknesses.
  • TrythisTrythis
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    @Opalthira
    well to be fair some people here are talking about fresh new characters who recently are around 1k, you've said before you used the reset function to gain AP and stay under 1k, I'm also assuming you've played for awhile so you had the chance to take advantage of AP events.
  • OpalthiraOpalthira
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    Trythis wrote: »
    @Opalthira
    well to be fair some people here are talking about fresh new characters who recently are around 1k, you've said before you used the reset function to gain AP and stay under 1k, I'm also assuming you've played for awhile so you had the chance to take advantage of AP events.

    The mechanic are easy enough to exploit and It doesn't even take that much investment to deal damage with Firebolt.
    You can hit for like 5k easy at a low level. Throw on CC+4 and it practically doesn't even matter anymore.
  • TrythisTrythis
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    edited July 19, 2018
    @Opalthira still though that's assuming they have the gold and/or time to rank pot making and herb to buy/make the pots

    And remember this is a fresh newby so they'd have to somehow do g19 while going a magic route before they can even do g21 and girg there likes to spam contagion making Ms not helpful thus they have to drink HP pots but then they could lose int from the pot poisoning

    Also remember that this a fresh character that's around 1k so they hadn't had the time to exploit the reset function to gather AP at best they have like 1.2k-1.3k depending on events and their acitvity to do dailies.


    Then they need to raise firebolt fire mastery magic weapon mastery and Ms to the max ranks, keeping in mind they like another 1k AP along with left over 800-900 AP after ranking those 4 skills just to have int and mp for ms not to break too much.

    So to be brief there's still a lot a nooby has to do if they 1k or less recently and recently being they hadn't had the time to take advantage of reset function for more AP, in short not that it's impossible for anyone who has 4k total (people with 2-3k total) just my point is for Fresh new players.

    But to reiterate I do not think players around 2-3k should give up easily they can watch others and see what they did maybe even reset at duncan to get necessary skill sets to help , but yeah it just harder for noobys to do it because they are newly created more hurdles to jump either take advantange of reset to stay under 1k or use tons of beginner naos which may not help if they can't deal damage fast enough
  • darkchaos125darkchaos125
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    edited July 20, 2018
    Liyeta wrote: »
    How to clear g21 part 2
    1st boss: wait on red area near the pillar, go to the other side of the pillar when the boss go underground, whem the boss pop up hit the pillar. Do this twice, then get the boss outside the ruin so npc can't hit her, deagro, hydra.
    2nd boss: shylock step or orb hitting pet, run, hit the orb
    3rd boss: divine link, clear the clone, start wotg/bash/fh.
    4th boss: stock up lots of mp, hp pots, baloon, mercenary scroll, and naos. When the dialogue start and the boss is moving closer, summon mercenary scroll, do it 5 ish time, start hitting the boss till hp 30%. Small tips the boss is strong toward magic and melee but weak towards range, i find gun is the most effective to use.

    Things i tried and failed:
    1. Using i frame to stop the 1 hit death
    2. Using crisis escape to stop the spike
    3. Using blade or spike to stop the boss spike when boss hp is 75% or lower

    Other thing that works:
    1. Mercenary scroll
    2. Trapping the boss on ledge on east side (between pillar and wall), go down the stair then from over the ledge, occasional lr and meteor.
    3. Stoping the insta death and spike using critical hit (sometime work sometime not)
    4. After getting debuffed, run away using demi till agro reset, wait till debuff is off. For some reason if the the boss stop agro ing fast enough he won't use the 1 hit kill skill.

    Im done with g21. Time to afk till g22 come out.

    oh so THAT's how you cheese tagar.

    Also i dont know who started or when 'cheesing' was a term..never heard of it...EVER....was told its an old term....

    I had thot i needed to do the pillars first before doing the actual cheesing...im so stupid with figuring out boss fights lately..
    ForeRunia wrote: »
    Alshian wrote: »
    G22 is prob going to be much, MUCH harder than what we had been through this Generation.

    Most people complaining won't even be able to do G22 on release. 5000k cumulative level requirement. If this alone doesn't show that they want to create content that gives you a reason to progress, idk what will. Perhaps the fault of the Alban Knights was being able to access it on a fresh character, as it implies you should be able to do it somewhat easily.

    I'm only fine with 5k cuz i barely made it past the 5k mark, 5.2 or 5.5k mark, and if you aren't 5k or close by g22...i feel like that's more strange, but that may sound rather cruel on the other hand, so I can understand why people would have an issue with it, but chronologically if you spent time in the game to reach g21-g22, ud reach 4k at minimum. This ensure speople have probably devleoped their stats as well as later stories are meant to be more difficult, monsters in new maps may be harder. That's just how rpg's and fantasy games are. New expansions, new worlds, new monsters = more difficulty, but still achievable with effort.
  • AquasolAquasol
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    Having gotten through it, I can see why a lot of players would find it difficult— it’s unclear what to do in several fights, the divinity sequence is not explained very well and can be disorienting. I mostly lucked out though, having died no more than twice on any boss, and Captain Jealousy spent most of his time either trying to use lightning rod, aiming scythes at spots I hadn’t been at for a good minute, or floating around pillars.
  • PlatinaKokiPlatinaKoki
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    Trythis wrote: »
    @PlatinaKoki

    That's true but they still have a point notice they said Fresh character like fully new only rbed about once character

    Also it isn't daily rbs the whole ride, 1000-2999 is rbing every 2 days if you don't believe me check this post out.

    http://forums.mabinogi.nexon.net/discussion/16753/new-kr-update-to-help-newbies/p1
    They didn't specify but I'm assuming on the chart means 3000-4999 rb every 4 days

    Yet, its still far easier to get to 5k than it was before.
  • violetkittvioletkitt
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,270
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    edited July 20, 2018
    Finally finished G21, And what I had a lot more problems with was passing the doppelganger. Only because of lag spikes and game crashing due to my own internet problems. This took me several attempts, so then I strategically went in with beast/demi using chain impale,burst, deathmark/ninja smokescreen to lower defense. You can also use bard buffs to aid you in dealing better damage or faster attack speed. Also used pets that can be resummoned like Lentos or Scooters while you deal damage. Bone Dragons are heavenly to have and so are they're chips :) kill clones ignore switches, use Anchor rush to escape the shadow that chases you
  • NinzerkerNinzerker
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    Alrighty, after a few days worth of grinding out mats for more potions and other supplies:
    Zephyrmaru wrote: »

    (That's...not asking much for a finale showdown. You can get like 20 stones a day if you really wanna try. 2 day's prep for a boss? Oldie G3 Final took more prep)

    Someone's misread something, I said ONE FIGHT, this isn't a final showdown against a boss, this is first enemy period, full stop. Which is telling me I'm more than likely going to need much more than that by the time the 4? 5? Next fights rear their inflated heads
    (No one said that. buddy. Planning and getting used to the fight =/= cheese. Though did you try barrier spikes?)

    No, because teleports and attacks that bypass level geometry aren't stopped by barrier spikes, and seeing as how hiding behind pillars did absolutely no good hiding behind a barrier spikes will not work either. Simple as that.
    (4 hours, 8 hours...same thing. Still clearing content at race car speeds.)

    Again 8 hours ONE FIGHT, that's frigid snail pace compared to every, and I mean EVERY other generation boss combined. That's taking a brand new new account and completing peaca abyss time
    (That's putting words in my mouth. Player guides will be up long before wiki, and wiki's important. Don't bash them.)

    Doesn't change the fact that player guides and wiki contributors are always late. And that's IF they decide to do anything, there's still quite a few pages on wiki that are little more than "this is a page that exists" and is left as is
    (Again, you're putting words in people's mouths. Also, assuming people who clear it are nolifers/p2win, classy. It's only a nerd when they're better than me, eh?)

    I've said nothing of the a sort, I've no qualms with nerds. It's whales that pretend their the majority of players, and their holier than thou attitude that I've fundamental problems with. Someone who frequently blows $200+ on cash shop items should not expect the same output as a casual player, who at most buys an average of 5-10 gacha a month if that
    For instance on a previous page someone listed their bow was reforged for extended range, what are the odds that person got the desired effect on the first reforge tool? I've reforged several bows, and never seen a range increase even appear. While my own luck may be subjective at best, and absolutely irrelevant at worst it shows precedence that not just everyone can even get such a reforge through casual means
    The problem arises when such people haughtily expect others to either have as much luck, free time, or funding as they do by sole merit that they have it regardless of earning it or not. And by extension you can also add internet connectivity, hardware, and physical capability to those variables. Of course a ten year old work rig could always run as well as a brand new alienware, but chances are it doesn't
    (I've seen new players beat the dungeons post-revamp. The key is not going in alone anymore, and forcing teamplay with other beginners.)

    And such methods would work, granted they were implemented at the correct time. The dungeon revamp however was not.
    Its ridiculous to "balance" a dungeon for two new players to act in tandem if there are so few new players that they are forced to ask much more powerful characters to carry them through what was previously a perfectly fine training ground tailored specifically for fresh accounts, but as it stands, you can stand around Tir and make note if you like, you will be lucky if even a single new player shows up. The majority being either bot or alt nowadays.
    To further exacerbate this, the maximum allowed party members for even Alby dungeon was reduced from 8 players to 4, really says alot about your theorised enforcement of team play now doesn't it?
    (Personal opinions aren't objective facts. What you're trying to say is you think hard content is fine until it overpowers people. Then it's just dumb to a lot of people who don't wanna go the distance when they're already close to home plate. Which is 100% fair and a valid opinion. In fact, that opinion I can agree on somewhat. Still not a fact though, and the more veteran battlenogis are going to enjoy that 11th hour dash to the finish line that leaves most in the dust for awile.)

    I never stated my opinion as factual, and there IS a clear difference between challenging, 11th hour scrambles and simply unfair
    A Dark Souls boss can be challenging
    That very same boss but you're playing a deprived character, lvl 1, and using broken sword playing on a guitar hero controller with your feet I'd say is an eleven in difficulty
    Unfair would be a every bonfire being a mimic. on top of everything else
    There is a laundry list of problems but an abridged version would be:
    Hit detection in this questline is extremely deceptive, from Tagar attacking with twice the apparent range of her animation, to Talvish's Reaper Scythe attack hitting a 180 degree cone to his front as well as a small distance behind him, (Whether reasons are latency issues, lag, or even sluggish hardware it's not representative of a players skill or lack thereof, but something outside of the players control)
    Cannot re-establish a divine link with your highest level pet, simply because it's a cloud. (Circumstantial, but indeed crippling)
    Crisis Escape, Play Dead, and Elf Hide do not drop his aggro, he will not only continue his current attack animations even post relocation, but will continue to initiate new attacks on you as if you hadn't used the skills at all
    Requires more than two HP 300 potions to recover from one attack when a single potion requires moderate tailoring and synthesis, on top of the obvious skill in potion making, if gathering the materials yourself can and will take the greater portion of a weeks worth of prep time, and can and most likely WILL be burned through in a matter of moments (Such is where I'm currently situated at this point in time) compounded that nobody in game sells such potions, whether NPC or player. (And yes I DID have a large supply from the previous potion fishing event, and YES those are all gone, including the extra HP 300's gained by fragmenting the Stamina ones)
    I cannot really say a certain phrase apparently, so I will just say this. There are people who went in with less prep then you, less ttlv then you, less gear then you, and still won. Are they mad lads, or is there something to it? Who knows. : )

    And I've commented on just such a person in a previous post when a similar argument was provided

    Take a spin down the entirety of the tarlach server, and you'll only find a handful of people with 'The new divinity' title, oddly enough, those same few are the only ones on the server to also have obtained Phantasm Breaker titles as well

    To those claiming this is the culmination of TWENTY generations, your dead wrong, there are several generations that can be done outside of the gen1, gen 2 gen 3 progression, for instance, my first completed generation was Shamala/Nightmare on the week I started the game, and I've completed G19 and G20 on fresh characters using only the Lorna balloon and beginner stones to get past the largest hurdle through both, G19's pre-divine skills Girg fight. As seeing as how you can still access these quests with an EXTREMELY underdeveloped character its more accurate to say that g21 is the culmination of NOT the full previous twenty generations, but just the culmination of the Divine Knights storyline

    For those claiming early Gen bosses were "brutal" as well, your not entirely wrong, but there is a fundamental difference. With the few combat styles that were available to you in G1 the chances are you have at least one of a selection of skills that will assist you, as well as teammates to back you up and cover for any weaknesses your character may have (Which is good in both design and practices!)
    These bosses are all forced solo (despite a literal section of one being dedicated to "Regrouping and calling more allies") and simply reading through page after page shows a CLEAR methodology of either have these particular set of skills or particular equipments or you have very little chance of success which smothers any player agency in lieu of an enforced meta. Basically saying that any character that doesn't fit a particular cookie cutter approach "isn't trying hard enough" Which should be abhorrent to something that heralds itself as among the most expressive MMO out there
    For instance:
    Opalthira wrote: »
    Tagar:
    Used mana shield ran around the pillar till it showed up hit the pillar once it came down on her.
    Did that one more time. Spammed firebolt, she died in 5 minutes.
    Golem:
    Used hide walked up and hit the switch mission ended.
    (I even turned off hide and the golem just passively spun in circles and didnt attack)
    Doppleganger:
    Used mana shield and divine link.
    Killed all the clones. Spammed firebolt, It died in 3 minutes or less.
    Talvish:
    I was honestly surprised how weak he was.
    Just ran away everytime he casted something took no damage.
    Spammed lightning rod an firebolt. Probably didn't take longer than 10 minutes.

    The mechanics in this gen were nice.
    Actually made me feel like i needed to do something other than just spam one skill till an enemy died.
    Very much fair and balanced, and despite not caring for this chapter at all g21 was decent enough story wise.

    Comically ironic, yes, but does help show that heavy reliance on chaincasted firebolts, spamming magnum shot with range reforges, abusing I-frames with anchor rush and lots of cheesing with Hydra Transmutation is showing to be the chief strategy.
    However at least there's a small selection other than previous generations meta being distilled to Life Drain and your done.
    Sherri
  • ZephyrmaruZephyrmaru
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    You did not just necro something from like two weeks ago...

    I'm not even gonna bother reading that, man. I just...holy cow that was 10 pages ago. I don't even remember what I had for breakfast and this was still bothering you?
  • RiddleTricksterRiddleTrickster
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    For the dopple, I made sure to kill the minions first as I temporarily summoned a cloud/pet to keep it busy and then hit the orbs. I would then use my mag, which really made a punch, and that was all I needed. Sometimes I would use my fighter as well. It went: Kill minions,then summon cloud/pet, then hit orbs and attack- repeat.

    These gens really keep you on your toes. Despite some of the mechanics that need to be worked out, I say there was a lot of heart put in it and I could see that. I love how this 2nd part ended.
    violetkitt