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Talk: does archery need rebalanced?

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  • KokoroKokoro
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    Buffalos wrote: »

    1) In order for archery to be comparable to other skillsets in terms of damage (guns, close combat, ninja) you need to have top quality reforges. My final hit slashes can hit 20K on a crit with absolutely no reforges but I can barely hit 9k with a single critical magnum shot with similar enchant damage and modifiers. 10k sounds nice and all, but I can get 30 FH slashes in under 10 seconds and can barely get 3 mags in that same time frame. This is a problem.
    2) If I had better ping, I could magnum revolver and easily up my archery DPS to be double what it is right now: and my ping to the server is just 50ms. Again, this is a problem.

    I think this shows more of how crazy Final Hit has become more than anything. I don't believe that buffing everything up to Final Hit level is necessarily the best solution.

    Just for reference, I was able to hit 18k with a crit magnum without reforges but it requires 1600 dex haha. I'm very invested into dex. However my ping is 210 on a regular day so yeah Final Hit steamrolls past me.
    DanievictriaPolicroma
  • BuffalosBuffalos
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    Kokoro wrote: »
    I think this shows more of how crazy Final Hit has become more than anything. I don't believe that buffing everything up to Final Hit level is necessarily the best solution.

    Just for reference, I was able to hit 18k with a crit magnum without reforges but it requires 1600 dex haha. I'm very invested into dex. However my ping is 210 on a regular day so yeah Final Hit steamrolls past me.

    I guess comparing it to FH was a bit harsh. But I could also point to dual guns or ninja having 6 hit AOEs that hit for 3k/hit without any aim delay.
  • DanievictriaDanievictria
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    Kokoro wrote: »
    Buffalos wrote: »

    1) In order for archery to be comparable to other skillsets in terms of damage (guns, close combat, ninja) you need to have top quality reforges. My final hit slashes can hit 20K on a crit with absolutely no reforges but I can barely hit 9k with a single critical magnum shot with similar enchant damage and modifiers. 10k sounds nice and all, but I can get 30 FH slashes in under 10 seconds and can barely get 3 mags in that same time frame. This is a problem.
    2) If I had better ping, I could magnum revolver and easily up my archery DPS to be double what it is right now: and my ping to the server is just 50ms. Again, this is a problem.

    I think this shows more of how crazy Final Hit has become more than anything. I don't believe that buffing everything up to Final Hit level is necessarily the best solution.

    Just for reference, I was able to hit 18k with a crit magnum without reforges but it requires 1600 dex haha. I'm very invested into dex. However my ping is 210 on a regular day so yeah Final Hit steamrolls past me.

    At the same time, if Final Hit were to be nerfed to even things out, you can be sure there would be riots on in the streets of Dunbarton...or the forums. Whichever's more convenient.

    After all, if you got Final Hit fairly early and (like me) soloed the quest when the enemies on the second floor of the second dungeon of the quest were still a legitimate threat...Yeah, you kind of feel like you earned that power. So, six in one hand, half-dozen in the other, I suppose.

    As for making Archery a more viable skillset, I think the most important thing is just to remove the variable accuracy thing. No other ranged skillset has the possibility of missing a target. Charging a skill while an enemy is coming at you, mistiming their approach, and getting messed up, yeah, that can happen. However, only Archery can have you charge your attack, time it correctly while the enemy is coming at you, and still get messed up because the game decided that that arrow should miss. Somewhere in their own universes, Hawkey and Green Arrow are both rage-quitting this game because they can't play themselves... :'(
  • SirRyuSirRyu
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    edited July 5, 2017
    Buffalos wrote: »

    1) In order for archery to be comparable to other skillsets in terms of damage (guns, close combat, ninja) you need to have top quality reforges. My final hit slashes can hit 20K on a crit with absolutely no reforges but I can barely hit 9k with a single critical magnum shot with similar enchant damage and modifiers. 10k sounds nice and all, but I can get 30 FH slashes in under 10 seconds and can barely get 3 mags in that same time frame. This is a problem.
    2) If I had better ping, I could magnum revolver and easily up my archery DPS to be double what it is right now: and my ping to the server is just 50ms. Again, this is a problem.

    Psst~ what kinda equips ya using to reach that 20k damage? The way you said it makes it sound like you can equip npc swords and start doing 20k hits.

    Also as a human our archery shouldn't be on par with our FH it would make more sense to compare that with elves and their FS wouldn't it?
  • BuffalosBuffalos
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    SirRyu wrote: »

    Psst~ what kinda equips ya using to reach that 20k damage? The way you said it makes it sound like you can equip npc swords and start doing 20k hits.

    Also as a human our archery shouldn't be on par with our FH it would make more sense to compare that with elves and their FS wouldn't it?

    1) CRKs veruses upgraded HLB. Removing critical damage modifiers on the CRKs, I'd put the CRKs at 10k V 9k on the mag. It sounds pretty even, but you can't spam magnum nearly as quickly or reliably.
    I must apologize for the skewed comparison: it was very misleading and not really what I wanted to point out.
    2) Fair enough. But I don't see many elves who can FS and get off nearly as many successful mags in the skill's duration. Missing just screws everything up.
  • SirRyuSirRyu
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    Buffalos wrote: »
    SirRyu wrote: »

    Psst~ what kinda equips ya using to reach that 20k damage? The way you said it makes it sound like you can equip npc swords and start doing 20k hits.

    Also as a human our archery shouldn't be on par with our FH it would make more sense to compare that with elves and their FS wouldn't it?

    1) CRKs veruses upgraded HLB. Removing critical damage modifiers on the CRKs, I'd put the CRKs at 10k V 9k on the mag. It sounds pretty even, but you can't spam magnum nearly as quickly or reliably.
    I must apologize for the skewed comparison: it was very misleading and not really what I wanted to point out.
    2) Fair enough. But I don't see many elves who can FS and get off nearly as many successful mags in the skill's duration. Missing just screws everything up.

    I think the missing thing is part of a necessary evil, if archery did hit 100% of the time they would have to adjust the cool downs to reflect that, otherwise the skillset would be incredibly broken.

    Also aren't CRK swords around 10m+ each?
  • BuffalosBuffalos
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    SirRyu wrote: »
    I think the missing thing is part of a necessary evil, if archery did hit 100% of the time they would have to adjust the cool downs to reflect that, otherwise the skillset would be incredibly broken.

    Also aren't CRK swords around 10m+ each?

    I'd much rather have a skillset that was reliable with slight decreases in direct damage than a volatile one that could quite easily get me killed. I shouldn't be punished with death just because I tried to hit something with a magnum and missed a 90% shot. With how insanely hard hitting some of the end game monsters are, you either have to abuse knock backs/stuns to kill them or be wumbo combo'd to death: missing a magnum isn't going to help you at all (assuming the target can be knock backed to begin with).

    And the price thing isn't really relevant to this at all: I was just comparing damage outputs in a rather poor manner.
  • lceCreamlceCream
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    That's also part of the problem. Melee equips are dirt cheap compared to range.
  • OrkaneOrkane
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    edited July 5, 2017
    Sphyra21 wrote: »
    Agreed. Figuring how this rebuild can be accomplished in a way that isn't reliant on single-digit ping and also not turn it into another final hit is going to be difficult.

    One of the main problems is the large number of steps involved with using a single skill, and how many of them are affected by ping.

    The way archery skills are currently treated works somewhat like this:

    1. Press button for skill to load
    2. Wait for server to get the message (ping dependent)
    3. Server acknowledges skill use and tells the client to go ahead
    4. Wait for client to get the message (ping dependent)
    5. Client acknowledges that it can now begin aiming
    6. Player clicks to begin aiming
    7. Aiming begins on the client side
    8. Wait for server to get the message (ping dependent)
    9. Aiming begins on the server side
    10. Wait for aim percentage to increase to an acceptable level
    11. Click to fire an arrow
    12. Wait for server to get the message (ping dependent)
    13. Shot fires on the server

    I am fully aware this is an approximation of what actually happens and that some of these steps can happen in tandem, but the point is, there are 4 different steps that depend on ping and if your ping at stages 8 and 12 is significantly different, then the aiming percentage the player sees on their screen becomes incorrect. No other skill set requires as many back and forth steps between the client and server to use a single skill once. This could be improved by having archery skills be charged like blaze (and all the changing all the skill times to match). It could work like this:

    1. Player selects target
    2. Player begins holding down button for appropriate skill
    3. Client side aim percentage starts counting up
    4. Wait for server to get the message
    5. Server side aim percentage starts going up
    6. Player waits until aim percentage is high enough
    7. Release skill button to fire
    8. Wait for server to get the message (ping dependent)
    9. Shot fires on the server

    In this case, there are only two ping dependent steps. The aim percentage can still be compromised by varying ping however.

    I should mention that I don't genuinely believe this is a good idea. There are plenty of problems with this; the jarring change between this and current archery is enough reason on its own why it shouldn't be done. I just thought it would be interesting to share.
  • RheyRhey
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    lceCream wrote: »
    That's also part of the problem. Melee equips are dirt cheap compared to range.

    True. Two focus rainbow beam sword+Melee can outperform my archery skillz with a bohemian set+step 6 ele6 Glorius sniper max upgraded bow. I was curious why and found out I was only 40% of the way there to be a viable ranger which was already a 20m investment...I shelved my bow and never looked back.
  • BuffalosBuffalos
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    lceCream wrote: »
    That's also part of the problem. Melee equips are dirt cheap compared to range.

    It might be in part because the end game bows' materials (dragon eyeballs and hearts, in particular) are all stupidly rare and the melee weapons have their materials drop from dungeons pretty easily.
  • TairikuTairiku
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    Archery is fine, our servers are not.
  • XxSWxXXxSWxX
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    Not sure if this is related to the latency I've been hearing about in this thread, but If you are on windows and you notice your healing is slow, it might be because of something called Nagle's Algorithm. There is a way to disable it, but doing so can also interfere with some games that rely on it, such as Dungeon Fighter.
  • PolicromaPolicroma
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    edited July 5, 2017
    Buffalos wrote: »
    lceCream wrote: »
    That's also part of the problem. Melee equips are dirt cheap compared to range.

    It might be in part because the end game bows' materials (dragon eyeballs and hearts, in particular) are all stupidly rare and the melee weapons have their materials drop from dungeons pretty easily.

    Yeah, but there's enough people running black dragon that mats are showing up more frequently. You can get the "hard" mats for 30m on a good day.

    I realize it's not equivalent, but consider other issues. Such as you have to upgrade, gem upgrade, and red up not one, but TWO CRKs. If you don't like to risk a step 6, you have to wait for an event just to get it on one. For a Bhafel hunter you only have to do this once.

    I will say that for doing 20k+ hits quickly and repeatedly, hailstorm does this nicely... though like with archery it is nice to have you humans as live bait when doing this. >:)
  • PanPan
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    This thread became a FH vs. Magnum Shot thread. Lol. Don't know why this is even an issue, may as well add in all the other skills like why isn't rock throw doing 100k bursts. Rocks hurt man.
  • WliaWlia
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    Archery sucks since you always miss at 99% and 90% but always hit at 0% to 40% so yea it needs massive rework.
  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
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    Wlia wrote: »
    Archery sucks since you always miss at 99% and 90% but always hit at 0% to 40% so yea it needs massive rework.

    Hey, this is a serious necro. Feel free to start a new thread if you wish to discuss this topic.
  • PanPan
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    I like archery.
  • FaithrendFaithrend
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    I’m a human archer main end game player I use hunter+ huntress and archer set with reforges and still i feel like archery can’t really compare to my other skill sets I think that if they removed the cool down from AR to how it originally was and buff urgent shot it would make the class better all around.
  • GretaGreta
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    Please, someone close this...
This discussion has been closed.