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Is there an Elf Overhaul coming?

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  • EllisyaEllisya
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,525
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    edited August 20, 2017
    Is this another suggestion thread in general section? Then........

    We need Premium Service (VIP) Overhaul.
    /exit
  • TNinjaTNinja
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    As an elf, you'll be exceeding other races in both archeyr and magic.

    Except for magic, as any race can do literally anything you can do, but at a slightly higher MP cost. For two skills.

    And arguably archery too, since the human's Dex difference isn't that great, and they can wield heavy armor with less penalty. Also Arrow Revolver.



    Hey, you get to look good in clothes.
    Danievictria
  • SugarAngelSugarAngel
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    edited August 20, 2017
    TNinja wrote: »
    As an elf, you'll be exceeding other races in both archeyr and magic.

    Except for magic, as any race can do literally anything you can do, but at a slightly higher MP cost. For two skills.

    And arguably archery too, since the human's Dex difference isn't that great, and they can wield heavy armor with less penalty. Also Arrow Revolver.



    Hey, you get to look good in clothes.

    I believe the words you were looking for on magic were 'Slightly Lower' MP cost, which is still significant enough because you'll be able to save what little gold you spend on potions, if people even use them anymore. But you also have to consider they have to spend more AP for magic, but such is the off-set for the lower AP cost for melee skills(Smash, Defense, Counter, Windmill, Combat Mastery). However, one could argue the growth for elves being younger is more valuable, especially at the lower ages since they can get a single mana point at .5 intelligence per level at Age 10(.75 mana + int at age 14), while humans don't get the benefit of that until Age 14, which is .25(albeit, it increases to .5 at age 15, and then .75 at age 17 for humans), as for giants, they don't get the obligation at all. They are forced at .25 intelligence at Age 16, and only get an increase at age 19 .. Of course, this is if we're min-maxing. But I'll go ahead and bring up since it can be used against me : Humans can get a SINGLE intelligence point per level... At age 21. But that won't matter now, won't it? Considering you'd have to do a lot of extra-waiting.
    Elves also get more intelligence to start with, and to match, more from talents(albeit small, but giving them an "advantage" in magic).

    As for the archery, it isn't arguably, elves are just better in every way. We can just drop Magnum Shot, Final Shot, Vision of Ladeca .. Plus they get that small amount of dexterity to push them forward to become better in the long run, even with a gimped ranged attack. Arrow Revolver isn't as amazing as it sounds - While it can handle multi aggro(rather poorly), it doesn't have the utility, and human archers don't even use it much. It all burns down to Crash Shot and Magnum Shot for the AoE and single target clear. Which, elves also have a lower cooldown in .. Until when a human reaches rank 5. Also, if we're going to talk about the age-growth system, humans fall off dexterity growth at age 17 completely; and have much lower ratios at age 10 and 14~16. While elves have a good ratio from ages 10~14 and keep the not .25 ratio of growth until Age 18, which is plenty of time for them to get that advantage.
    Plus elves get more dexterity from the archer talent; I want to bring that up as it also helps them further the dexterity gap.

    As for fashion, everyone can do it. Giants can look great, humans can look great, elves can look great... As can every race look the opposite. ;)
    (Elves get the best race-exclusive clothing design however.)

    But I'm going to flat out say, Magic Missle needs a rework. It needs to be similar to fullswing. Magic Missle has a 600% ratio at Rank 1 on a 20 second cooldown, meanwhile Full Swing has a 900% ratio and can be used with Windguard out of transformation now. That needs to be changed so elves can have a better chance at dealing more raw DPS outside of Magnum Shot when they use Magnum Shot. ;) All that needs to happen is the cooldown to go from 20 seconds to 5.

    That's all however. I know most won't read my stuff, but that just proves you don't care to argue.
    DanievictriaTheNyanCat
  • FeliceFelice
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    I'm gonna have to argue that Humans outclass Elves as Archers, which is very counter-productive for a race that has been stereo-typed into being bow-loving snipers who never miss thanks to Lord of the Rings.

    Elves get a potential second shot with ranged normal attacks, yes. Elves can use all archery skills from horseback, alright fine. Elves have longer load times on every skill they share with humans in the Archery Pool. This makes Humans FASTER with almost every archery skill they share.

    How do I know this as a human main?

    Archery is one of about 8 talents I've spent the last 4-5 months grinding out to rank 1 or Master in every skill for. I have also helped an elf friend, who was struggling with Archery, do exactly this as well.

    The biggest offenders of this are Crash, Support and Urgent Shot, however, as an archery skill, some of Urgent Shot's requirements are complete BS unless you live on the same city block as the server and have a direct T1 land-line to the building.

    Crash Shot differs between the two races the least, with about a half-second load time as difference.

    Urgent Shot is about the same, however, if I remember right, its cooldown is longer instead

    Support Shot is the worst offender of this. Elves have Double the Cooldown across all ranks. Humans at Rank 1, a whopping 0.5 CD. Elves. a full 1.0 second CD. And it gets worse, the lower your rank is.

    I do not know what kind of racial differences exist between Human and elves for Magnum and Spider Shot, as my friend already had Magnum done, and did not care about Spider Shot.

    Yes, elves can aim faster with special race skills, yes, elves can hit just a little harder as they get about 100 more dex than humans. But Humans can shoot faster in the end, as their skills are built around rapid attacks and are ready to be used again, quicker.

    One critical suggestion is to either balance the load/cooldown times for shared skills, there's no reason that these three skills need to separate the races like that.

    As for an upgrade to Elves.

    How about giving them an Elf-Only bow that doubles as a Staff? A low-grade one that has the effects of a Trinity Staff, needing to be charged to used Int Spells, and a higher grade one that acts like a Hermit Staff.

    Another option is to add Rapiers to the list of weapons able to use Lance Skills, giving Elves the lancer talent so we can end that QQ thread once and for all. And while we're at it on that front, let the giant's atlatl use Archery skills at slightly reduced damages, ending THAT QQ thread too.
    DanievictriaSugarAngelSherriZeo
  • JoeyDee9JoeyDee9
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    Felice wrote: »
    SNIP

    Going to step in here and say you are completely wrong. Elves are just better. It doesn't matter if I can 80k crit mag on a human (Kinda low honestly) when I can't keep popping mags like a darn machine gun.

    Elves get vision, Final shot (honestly a great skill, maybe could use 10 more seconds IDK it's still good), and a crazy friggen low mag CD. My speed as a human can't even compare. It's just too SLOW.
    SugarAngelMikuV3Hiroki05
  • MhaolMhaol
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    Sadly. Elves will never get a rework to make them Par with Humans and Giants.
    Elves will only get Archery as they Go-To Best skill sets, and Archery will always be hindered by the stupid aiming system that slows them down.

    No Matter how badly Players want Elves to be effective in another Talent - new or old- It will never happen.
  • TheNyanCatTheNyanCat
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    edited August 21, 2017
    JoeyDee9 wrote: »
    Felice wrote: »
    SNIP

    Going to step in here and say you are completely wrong. Elves are just better. It doesn't matter if I can 80k crit mag on a human (Kinda low honestly) when I can't keep popping mags like a darn machine gun.

    Elves get vision, Final shot (honestly a great skill, maybe could use 10 more seconds IDK it's still good), and a crazy friggen low mag CD. My speed as a human can't even compare. It's just too SLOW.

    I'm kinda on the fence since you can argue for both humans and elves but as you said the low mag cd in addition to Final shot+Vision buff is pretty great, without that it would be pointless to make an elf for archery.
    Mhaol
  • FeliceFelice
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    Never planned on arguing the point of Magnum Spam, That's a null-argument in favor of elves.

    My main point was that every other skill shared between humans and elves in archery, favors humans for speed in some way shape or form.

    Yes, Elves get Eye of Ladeca or whatever it's called, granting them up to 400% aiming speed. It doesn't change the fact that a Human's cooldown time, is on average, FASTER than an Elf's

    If you turly doubt me on this, then take the time to train every skill in archery for humans and elves and tell us which race really loads skills faster, which race really has longer cooldowns. Not which race can run up in a boss's face faster and Zero-Shoot 160k Crit Magnums faster.
  • SugarAngelSugarAngel
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    edited August 21, 2017
    Felice wrote: »
    Never planned on arguing the point of Magnum Spam, That's a null-argument in favor of elves.

    My main point was that every other skill shared between humans and elves in archery, favors humans for speed in some way shape or form.

    Yes, Elves get Eye of Ladeca or whatever it's called, granting them up to 400% aiming speed. It doesn't change the fact that a Human's cooldown time, is on average, FASTER than an Elf's

    If you turly doubt me on this, then take the time to train every skill in archery for humans and elves and tell us which race really loads skills faster, which race really has longer cooldowns. Not which race can run up in a boss's face faster and Zero-Shoot 160k Crit Magnums faster.

    Crash Shot, Urgent Short are the same cooldown, you said it yourself in your own post, plus on top of that, another shared skill, being Support Shot gives more for humans ... As you said for your previous post... So what're you trying to say when you proved yourself wrong besides ONE skill that has such a low cooldown, it doesn't even matter? Since by the time the animation finishes anyway, a second will have passed by then.

    Also, I hate to break it to you, but if you're completely ignoring Magnum Shot for this arguement, you best leave the thread if you want to talk about Racial Balance, it's like saying, "Final Hit is a null arguement for Giant v. Human melee, buff humans please."

    Lastly.. I incredibly doubt you, I have a 2k Giant, 5k Elf, 7k Human, I enjoy playing all of them, but from what I found out through gameplay, in terms of bossing since you're using that as a comparison .. My Elf does it the best, especially with upgraded light armor and 'the Shield Master' title to compliment that kind of playstyle. My Giant does the second best, as Windguard is amazing... My human however? She feels pitifully weak, but that's for a good reason, as humans are just talented in everything, but in turn, are also mediocre in everything compared to the races that are best at something.

    Oh wait, I didn't do that last bit you were talking about, which race really had longer cooldowns .. If we're being honest, elves do, which is tragic, but only in melee. As the ONLY ranged skill you're trying to pick out and say "Elves are useless archers" for is Support Shot .. Why not just bring up the 4 second CD on Windmill for elves?

    http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Crash_Shot - Elves have a lower cooldown than humans until Rank 5 Crash Shot

    http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Support_Shot - You're correct in this one, elves have a 0.5 longer cooldown, which doesn't even matter much. Especially given that elves have an earlier Crash Shot advantage, and faster training, on top of that also have Magnum Shot advantage and share the same cooldown as humans with Urgent Shot. Besides, humans need this advantage anyway, because they only have this really, besides having Arrow Revolver between Magnum Shots or Crash Shots.

    http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Urgent_Shot - As you mentioned, it was the same cooldown for both races. But you use it for a reason anyway, elves don't need to be better at a "panic shot" because I missed at 100%, humans can too.

    http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Magnum_Shot - Elves have 1 second lower cooldown than humans, which is what makes the difference between human and elf archers.

    So from what I gathered, the cooldown time is faster overall for an ELF rather than a human, so I hate to say, your argument, or opinion, is wrong for Archery.
    Felice wrote: »
    I'm gonna have to argue that Humans outclass Elves as Archers, which is very counter-productive for a race that has been stereo-typed into being bow-loving snipers who never miss thanks to Lord of the Rings.

    Elves get a potential second shot with ranged normal attacks, yes. Elves can use all archery skills from horseback, alright fine. Elves have longer load times on every skill they share with humans in the Archery Pool. This makes Humans FASTER with almost every archery skill they share.
    They aim 100% slower with the Normal Attack in the Archery Pool, also if you didn't know, Ranged Attack Aim Speed doesn't effect Magnum Shot or Crash Shot aim speed. They also don't have longer cooldown, as I mentioned before on every skill, as you seem to given your illusion in believing.

    How do I know this as a human main?

    Archery is one of about 8 talents I've spent the last 4-5 months grinding out to rank 1 or Master in every skill for. I have also helped an elf friend, who was struggling with Archery, do exactly this as well.
    It sounds like your Elf Friend was either new at the game, or was simply in a bad place with lag when it was prominent.

    The biggest offenders of this are Crash, Support and Urgent Shot, however, as an archery skill, some of Urgent Shot's requirements are complete BS unless you live on the same city block as the server and have a direct T1 land-line to the building.
    I'll agree, but let's look at old Windmill, that makes Crash shot look EASY to train in comparison.

    Crash Shot differs between the two races the least, with about a half-second load time as difference.
    Elves have better cooldown until Rank 5, then they are shared.

    Urgent Shot is about the same, however, if I remember right, its cooldown is longer instead
    Same cooldown, same benefits, same training.

    Support Shot is the worst offender of this. Elves have Double the Cooldown across all ranks. Humans at Rank 1, a whopping 0.5 CD. Elves. a full 1.0 second CD. And it gets worse, the lower your rank is.
    Humans have to be good at something, right? Other than having Arrow Revolver to make up for the lag of being able to effectively Magnum Shot spam, and also between Crash Shots.

    I do not know what kind of racial differences exist between Human and elves for Magnum and Spider Shot, as my friend already had Magnum done, and did not care about Spider Shot.
    Then why are you arguing this? Magnum Shot has a 1 second lower cooldown for elves, totaling to 0.5 seconds for an elf, and Spider Shot is equal amongst elves and humans.

    Yes, elves can aim faster with special race skills, yes, elves can hit just a little harder as they get about 100 more dex than humans. But Humans can shoot faster in the end, as their skills are built around rapid attacks and are ready to be used again, quicker.
    Yes, they can, and it also applies to the 'Focused Aim' skills, such as Magnum Shot and Crash Shot along with normal skills like Mirage Missle, Support Shot, and Ranged Attack.

    One critical suggestion is to either balance the load/cooldown times for shared skills, there's no reason that these three skills need to separate the races like that.
    No need, it gives the elves and humans the balance needed for Archery.
    As for an upgrade to Elves.

    How about giving them an Elf-Only bow that doubles as a Staff? A low-grade one that has the effects of a Trinity Staff, needing to be charged to used Int Spells, and a higher grade one that acts like a Hermit Staff.
    I actually wouldn't mind this, it would actually add something really neat and interactive for elves as a mage/archer hybrid class. Great suggestion!

    Another option is to add Rapiers to the list of weapons able to use Lance Skills, giving Elves the lancer talent so we can end that QQ thread once and for all. And while we're at it on that front, let the giant's atlatl use Archery skills at slightly reduced damages, ending THAT QQ thread too.
    This is really not necessary, elves don't need anymore strength as giants don't need anymore Dexterity.

    I should be fair and also comment on this, as I didn't see it at first ;
    look in the reply for my answers in bold.
  • Darkpixie99Darkpixie99
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    edited August 21, 2017
    There might be an Elf revamp still in dev testing, but there is new content involving squires heading out.
    New Talent Chain Slash
    sub02_con05_01.png
    sub02_con07_02.png
    sub02_con07_01.png
    DanievictriaSugarAngel
  • JoeyDee9JoeyDee9
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    The biggest problem with elves is that all they have is archery. Chain slash is Dex/Luck based and Giants deal the most damage with it (like fo-reals).

    End game it really doesn't matter, all 3 races kinda can do just about anything but if you are a min-maxer or just someone who wants to be the "best" at somethings elves have the "lowest" (in quotes because all they have potential for is archery) potential. They can be AMAZING archers, but what about gunner, puppets, ninja, fighter, or just about any of the other talents. Chain slash was a lot of hope for them, but even then giants pulled out the best.

    Either way, I wish I was an elf, just so I could have Elf-mazing archery.
    SherriAtaraxizSugarAngelZeo
  • SherriSherri
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    edited August 21, 2017
    That's what elves need! Humans and giants get their own variants of warrior, so give elves racial advantage with the rapier.
    It requires dexterity to use one in general, so maybe make it so rapiers use dex to deal damage as well..?
    Also, on top of that, there is already an elf NPC who uses a rapier. (Thx grumpy Maike!)
    AtaraxizDanievictriaSugarAngelLeiliciaZeo
  • AtaraxizAtaraxiz
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    Sherri wrote: »
    That's what elves need! Humans and giants get their own variants of warrior, so give elves racial advantage with the rapier.
    It requires dexterity to use one in general, so maybe make it so rapiers use dex to deal damage as well..?
    Also, on top of that, there is already an elf NPC who uses a rapier. (Thx grumpy Maike!)

    I APPROVE THIS MESSAGE
  • TNinjaTNinja
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    You actually technically need a lot of strength to deal with a bow too, because trust me. Bow strings are hard to pull, and the very best bows requires immense arm strength to not only pull, but also keep the aim steady.


    Nothing is logical in this game.
    SherriSugarAngelPlatinaKokiiMattxC
  • SugarAngelSugarAngel
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    edited August 21, 2017
    Sherri wrote: »
    That's what elves need! Humans and giants get their own variants of warrior, so give elves racial advantage with the rapier.
    It requires dexterity to use one in general, so maybe make it so rapiers use dex to deal damage as well..?
    Also, on top of that, there is already an elf NPC who uses a rapier. (Thx grumpy Maike!)
    Well, Chainslash is coming out, so there is that. We don't really need to take a niche weapon and make it into something. They didn't even do it to Scythes. We could also just say you can use puppetry handlebars, but those are rather bad no matter the race, unless you use the puppet itself.
    Ataraxiz wrote: »
    I APPROVE THIS MESSAGE
    Once again, Chainslash, they'll be incredibly adept with it, along with humans, and not with giants.
    TNinja wrote: »
    You actually technically need a lot of strength to deal with a bow too, because trust me. Bow strings are hard to pull, and the very best bows requires immense arm strength to not only pull, but also keep the aim steady.


    Nothing is logical in this game.
    Incredibly true! They should also give elves the ability to dual wield, use every two-handed sword as well. But unfortunately we can't really buff the close combat without making humans more niche, there is a fine-line that seperates humans from elves, and it is the lack of strength.
    Besides, 700 strength is more than enough to pull a bow string. :D Plus is it too late to say we're talking about a PvE fantasy game?
    **EDIT**
    When I think on it, honestly. Elves wouldn't even have such an impactful presence when having this ability to dual wield and use just about every two-handed sword, they'd still be mediocre from humans.. So you know what? Let it happen.. Along with that Magic Missle buff I'm so hellbent on wanting.
  • KokoroKokoro
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    edited August 21, 2017
    SugarAngel wrote: »
    Ataraxiz wrote: »
    I APPROVE THIS MESSAGE
    Once again, Chainslash, they'll be incredibly adept with it, along with humans, and not with giants.

    Technically giants will be the best at chainslash every half a day due to the 15% bonus from the Might of Ladeca thing but elves will be the best for the other half.
  • OpalthiraOpalthira
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    People already did the math a long time ago basically giants do very little extra damage compared to elves.
    But only if they min max stats and are ttl 40k with every skill unlocked pretty much.
  • SugarAngelSugarAngel
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    edited August 22, 2017
    Kokoro wrote: »
    SugarAngel wrote: »
    Ataraxiz wrote: »
    I APPROVE THIS MESSAGE
    Once again, Chainslash, they'll be incredibly adept with it, along with humans, and not with giants.

    Technically giants will be the best at chainslash every half a day due to the 15% bonus from the Might of Ladeca thing but elves will be the best for the other half.

    If we want to be more technical, Giants will only be the best Chain Slash users if they use Divine Link and have a lv. 200 DEX heavy pet. So.. Elves will still be the best unless you want to dedicate to minmaxing a 700-dexterity divine link pet.

    Opalthira wrote: »
    People already did the math a long time ago basically giants do very little extra damage compared to elves.
    But only if they min max stats and are ttl 40k with every skill unlocked pretty much.

    Exactly this, plus we also have to consider they'd have to hinder themselves by going Puppetry or Chainslash talent for maximum growth and effectiveness of the class.. The highest growth of dexterity they can get anyway per level is half a level, puppetry bumping it to .75 and archery(if they can lock into it for the stats) and chainslash to 1.0 per level I'm pretty sure while elves can get 1 ~ 1.25 per level. Like I said, we're min-maxing if we're going to be saying giants are going to be the best ...

    Plus like I mentioned earlier, they'd be gimping themselves.

    (They'd need about 400~500 dexterity from divine link @ lv. 200, and 500~700(between) if they aren't a chain slash talent, which also costs PON(I'm unaware if this changed!)to go into by the rebirth... So why complain?
    Nilrem
  • iMattxCiMattxC
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    Pan wrote: »
    Elves are literally the best race in the game.

    Are you forgetting dual guns which don't miss, do twice as much damage, and hold more shots in a smaller space?
    SugarAngel
  • DangerousDitchDangerousDitch
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    SugarAngel wrote: »
    Kokoro wrote: »
    SugarAngel wrote: »
    Ataraxiz wrote: »
    I APPROVE THIS MESSAGE
    Once again, Chainslash, they'll be incredibly adept with it, along with humans, and not with giants.

    Technically giants will be the best at chainslash every half a day due to the 15% bonus from the Might of Ladeca thing but elves will be the best for the other half.

    If we want to be more technical, Giants will only be the best Chain Slash users if they use Divine Link and have a lv. 200 DEX heavy pet. So.. Elves will still be the best unless you want to dedicate to minmaxing a 700-dexterity divine link pet.

    Opalthira wrote: »
    People already did the math a long time ago basically giants do very little extra damage compared to elves.
    But only if they min max stats and are ttl 40k with every skill unlocked pretty much.

    Exactly this, plus we also have to consider they'd have to hinder themselves by going Puppetry or Chainslash talent for maximum growth and effectiveness of the class.. The highest growth of dexterity they can get anyway per level is half a level, puppetry bumping it to .75 and archery(if they can lock into it for the stats) and chainslash to 1.0 per level I'm pretty sure while elves can get 1 ~ 1.25 per level. Like I said, we're min-maxing if we're going to be saying giants are going to be the best ...

    Plus like I mentioned earlier, they'd be gimping themselves.

    (They'd need about 400~500 dexterity from divine link @ lv. 200, and 500~700(between) if they aren't a chain slash talent, which also costs PON(I'm unaware if this changed!)to go into by the rebirth... So why complain?

    Right? Find me the Giant who goes through all of this outrageous trouble and I'll show you an idiot who decided not to just buy an axe and use full swing...
    NilremLeiliciaSugarAngel