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The Elf Revamp, Yes I said it.

Comments

  • ArjuneArjune
    Mabinogi Rep: 16,890
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    edited November 4, 2017
    Gaea wrote: »
    I mean they can solo Phantasm, what is the problem?

    unlike giants who still cant (efficiently).... contrary to how OP people seem to think windguard and fullswing made us in our 'revamp'. Yes giants can solo it but it's still a lot harder, and we still have nothing to properly kill the boss with efficiently. :/
    SherriTheNyanCat
  • NilremNilrem
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    Gaea wrote: »
    @Nilrem psh! I want Mana shield to be uncapped to rank 1. Also Mana shield is not impenetrable. You use dance of death and dischord with the right reforges, Hydra, skills like that and you can mess up that tactic. Even with my Mana shield at rank 6 and my Mana shield damage reduction 19, if someone uses a combination of those skills it can wipe me out pretty fast. Also the Duke from peaca can bypass that shield. So yeah it's powerful but not fail proof.

    Well yeah. In pvp you can do all of that stuff to shatter it.

    But we get balances through PvE.

    Also was just fine against Duke with my mana shield up.
    Have no idea what you did.

    Keep in mind though, the people I'm talking about raised mana shield's effectiveness to the point of being capable of tanking blows in EvG.
    From multiple people at once.

    Although I would not mind a mana shield uncap.
    My main jab above was more on making mana shield stronger only for Elves, which are already the top tier endgame race.
    Sherri
  • PolicromaPolicroma
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    edited November 4, 2017
    Just a note...

    For anyone having lag issues with archery, try to get off market channel. Dunno how much it'll help people overseas, but from what I've noticed trying to use it on market channel will greatly throw off your timing. (The server has to think before it responds to you!)

    Also, I know not everyone will want to do it, but I've known several people who swear by VPNing.
    Sherri
  • SherriSherri
    Mabinogi Rep: 18,360
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    edited November 4, 2017
    What it sounds like is that Korea needs to nerf archery for elves and allow some sort of revamp for them concerning magic.
    Greta wrote: »
    Wow, i totally forgot the existence of Elf QQ/Revamp threads. Welcome back? :trollface:

    It's only an 'Elf QQ' thread if you make it one.
    Honestly people, this thread can exist if you don't label it something bad.
    It's a discussion regarding elves and what they could possibly obtain with a revamp.
    It's fine to disagree, not everyone will like certain ideas or a revamp thread, but it's an entire thing to troll the thread, deeming it 'Elf QQ' and getting it locked because of your bad behavior.
    Please, don't bring in toxicity like every other thread that popped up and got locked, just like any other thread.
    YokkaichiNilremPolicromaSiodhanVaughanKaga
  • ToonToon
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    I have not read the entire post but I just want to comment something important. Mirage missile is not useless, it's not just a poison, it's a movespeed slow. It is used at the phantasm queen because her moving slower will make you aim faster, therefore firing more shots and doing more dps, with less misses.
    GretaPolicromaVaughanSherri
  • HellkaizerHellkaizer
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    Toon wrote: »
    I have not read the entire post but I just want to comment something important. Mirage missile is not useless, it's not just a poison, it's a movespeed slow. It is used at the phantasm queen because her moving slower will make you aim faster, therefore firing more shots and doing more dps, with less misses.

    I feel like some people tend to forget, not every skill can be super powerful in terms of dps, but because it's not hitting some huge number it's worthless.
    PolicromaNilrem
  • KagaKaga
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    edited November 5, 2017
    Siodhan wrote: »
    I want to see that 1m magnum happen under normal circumstances.That smells like bull.

    I haven't seen 1m Magnum happen even with buffs and setup, let alone under "normal" circumstances. That will never happen.
    NeynaSherri
  • NeynaNeyna
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,040
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    edited November 5, 2017
    Kaga wrote: »
    Siodhan wrote: »
    I want to see that 1m magnum happen under normal circumstances.That smells like bull.

    I haven't seen 1m Magnum happen even with buffs and setup, let alone under "normal" circumstances. That will never happen.

    Stay away from archery-related convo bruhh. Stick with your Blaze-related stuff instead. You already hit 1m with that, so chill.

    Back on topic, they should make that Final Shot doesn't miss any shot(s) like what op said.
    KagaSherri
  • ToonToon
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    I do 300k mags at clobber, don't think it's possible to hit higher, unless someone rolls triple ele in NA
  • PolicromaPolicroma
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    edited November 5, 2017
    Hellkaizer wrote: »
    I feel like some people tend to forget, not every skill can be super powerful in terms of dps, but because it's not hitting some huge number it's worthless.

    This has been a common attitude in Mabi for years. I think part of the problem is people get envious when grouped, they see the humans teleporting all over the place, all the monsters getting squished quickly, and haven't even gotten one shot fired off. Their "magnum spam" never sees the light of day. Or at best, they get one shot fired off.

    To this I have a few answers: Yes, use skills like mirage and support shot. Human players (at least from what I've seen) appreciate these with tougher monsters and bosses, and they fire very rapidly. Learn to "Shot of God" (admittedly doesn't work as well on market channel, but it got me through Dan 3 magnum without chasing the monsters around like an idiot). Use the dang final shot, the teleporting's clunky, but the aiming speed boost helps. Use speed or damage boosting armor (doesn't require reforges), Try to keep over level 100 when doing any serious grouping. Every little bit helps.

    Shot of God was a tough one for me, because I used to be convinced it was a bug and could be taken away at any time, so I tried to resist using it as much as possible. (Breaking mabi's RNG for free had quite a bit of "too good to be true" attached to it, when put up against things like enchanting or the gachas.) It was something I learned to do for the lulz but didn't want to depend on. But between the Magnum Dan test and the constant talk about how powerful elves are in Korea, it got me thinking that there's probably a reason they're considered so powerful, and probably a reason why "urgent shot" was introduced.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    This may be just me, but if one has to invest millions of gold into a skillset that would otherwise be worthless without it, on a skill set lauded for its single target DPS, I am a bit miffed.

    Shot of god also appears to be an issue of latency, that primarily depends on one's proximity to the servers. Not quite sure. I live on the East Coast, though I could be wrong.

    And yes, Mirage Missile is feasible where it does apply. That movement debuff is handy.
  • PolicromaPolicroma
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    edited November 5, 2017

    Shot of god also appears to be an issue of latency, that primarily depends on one's proximity to the servers. Not quite sure. I live on the East Coast, though I could be wrong.

    I live in New Mexico, and while that's not all the way in another hemisphere, it's not like I live next door to the server.

    Besides, I find that as far as latency goes, the server response seems to be the key. Because all the fancy computers, proximity, Nagle disabling, and VPN in the world isn't going to help you if the server has to think a few seconds before letting your arrow fly. I can't say it enough... if you're doing something serious enough that latency is going to be an issue, get off market channel. Got a store open? Well, you're going to have to choose. :/

    I did a lot of experimenting on this when working on my Dan 3. Yes, it really is that big an issue. Market channel gave me far more issues in getting SoG working than anything else.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    Policroma wrote: »

    Shot of god also appears to be an issue of latency, that primarily depends on one's proximity to the servers. Not quite sure. I live on the East Coast, though I could be wrong.

    I live in New Mexico, and while that's not all the way in another hemisphere, it's not like I live next door to the server.

    Besides, I find that as far as latency goes, the server response seems to be the key. Because all the fancy computers, proximity, Nagle disabling, and VPN in the world isn't going to help you if the server has to think a few seconds before letting your arrow fly. I can't say it enough... if you're doing something serious enough that latency is going to be an issue, get off market channel. Got a store open? Well, you're going to have to choose. :/

    I did a lot of experimenting on this when working on my Dan 3. Yes, it really is that big an issue. Market channel gave me far more issues in getting SoG working than anything else.

    I tried quite a bit, especially after the internet improved. This doesn't need to be said, but New Mexico To California doesn't appear to be half the distance of Virginia to California.

    Even then, the idea of switching off market channel isn't feasible when many parties are formed primarily on the market channel, and many do not want to move due to having a shop open, among other things.

    I rather just use another skill set, unless the run is Phantasm, or anything else of that nature, which would make me consider switching channels for those precise few missions where every advantage should be accounted for.

    And taking this into account, having to use reforges may irk me. Of course, I can buy them with gold, but that is just me depending on others to buy it for me, as well as RNG being nice. The idea of being dependent on the player market for precisely one product, much less a few, irks me. Does this really have to apply to a skillset like archery?

    In any case, archery is ancient, yet many do no want to change it too much. Which is perhaps the problem.
  • PolicromaPolicroma
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    Excuse me, but I was unaware that players gave away their x-grade lances and CRKs away for free. That 56th floor enchant.... I was unaware it was free.

    ....

    Reforges are not "required" for archery anymore than they are "required" for any other skill set. The only skillset that can get crazy-high damage without a lot of gold is magic, and even then the skills are slow and clunky. People will still put a lot of gold and IRL money into reforges and special upgrades to make up for that.

    It's like they say in the business world... Worry about the controllables, and there's a lot that can be controlled.
  • justshowingjustshowing
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    edited November 5, 2017
    you wanna know why people don't like any revamps done to elves?
    (even though final shot still has a load time since before genesis update)

    everyone is more biased in favor of humans and giants for pvp communities reasons.
    because reforges are more in favor with this pvp community.

    oh sorry~ this is more of my opinion really. so don't kill my thought on it~

    what the community voted on because everyone is negative and will make sure elves are under humans and will kept known as (sub-human)
    I'm sorry for getting triggered but giants get a revamp on appearance, and skills. while elves were the same for years and years.

    I'm in favor of ANYTHING new for elves that's not shared within other races.


    giants have 600% rank 1 smash... give elves 600% rank 1 magnum.

    giants have more defensive and offensive skills then elves? so give elves traps and escape skills like kunai explosion things.

    come on nexon~ you biased, scared, money loving old men~

    give me a elf revamp PLEASE
    KagaSherriChaosShadow
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    edited November 5, 2017
    Policroma wrote: »
    Excuse me, but I was unaware that players gave away their x-grade lances and CRKs away for free. That 56th floor enchant.... I was unaware it was free.

    ....

    Reforges are not "required" for archery anymore than they are "required" for any other skill set. The only skillset that can get crazy-high damage without a lot of gold is magic, and even then the skills are slow and clunky. People will still put a lot of gold and IRL money into reforges and special upgrades to make up for that.

    It's like they say in the business world... Worry about the controllables, and there's a lot that can be controlled.

    If you have no shot of god to reliably hit regardless of range, and too much of the damage is locked behind reforges, then I do not see the point of using archery, even the elven variant. Archery has always been lauded as the DPS talent from my experience. However, if the DPS can only be unlocked with reforges, and the damage is otherwise completely lackluster, then wouldn't that make it a necessity? To not be obsolete is what I consider a necessity when it comes to skill sets.

    This doesn't discount the buffs like Support Shot's multiplier, or Mirage Missiles slowdown as being worthless, but I don't see it being feasible to carry the talent on its own.

    I am not sure if I am reading your response correctly, but it seems as if I offended you. I am looking over my previous responses, and I apologize for any discomfort or villainous implications I have appeared to have made. That was not my intention. :(

    And yes, I am worrying about the variable one can control. I think they are asking too much. That saying's application to my argument seems no different than telling someone to "Deal with it" instead of complaining. Isn't complaining in the form of constructive criticism a form of dealing with it?
  • PolicromaPolicroma
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    I'm not offended, but I do take issue with the fatalism thing that surrounds elves and archery. It's been a sore spot for me for a long time.

    People get hung up on reforges because they see people hitting spikes and foxes for 80k. That's not really a real world use issue, and doesn't really show what the skillset can do. People also get hung up on lag, but I know of an Aussie who has far more dan 3s than I do. He controlled what he could...he stayed off channel 1 and used a VPN.

    Just to give you a basic list of controllables that do not involve latency or reforges:

    Tactics- Absolutely free. And if you hunt alone, you don't have to worry about what everyone else is doing and can experiment

    Bhafel hunter/huntress set- Adds a 15% damage multiplier to everything you do.

    Celtic Royal Crossbow- Extra pierce. Crossbow mastery has anti-defense added in

    Bohemian set- Extra magnum damage

    Languhiris Chaser set or Chinese armor- makes you fire faster. (My personal favorite)

    Dan tests- Extra damage

    Catering- Extra damage

    Red Ups- Multiply damage roughly 1/3 of shots fired

    Combo Cards- Can now be edited. Gold combo cards can be obtained in events or theater missions.

    Transformation- demi makes you fire faster, like having an extra final shot

    Pets- Understandably hard if you try to keep it free, but pet debuff effects stack. They also stack with Dance of Death

    Vision of Ladeca- Pew pew pew!

    Just tons and tons of things you can do.

    This is why I hate the whole Elf QQ fatalism around Archery. Everybody whines about reforges but there's so much more to it. Just because a guy can hit a fox for 80k with an elemental reforge doesn't mean the whole game revolves around that.
    VaughanGretaNilremMikuV3
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    edited November 5, 2017
    Policroma wrote: »
    I'm not offended, but I do take issue with the fatalism thing that surrounds elves and archery. It's been a sore spot for me for a long time.

    People get hung up on reforges because they see people hitting spikes and foxes for 80k. That's not really a real world use issue, and doesn't really show what the skillset can do. People also get hung up on lag, but I know of an Aussie who has far more dan 3s than I do. He controlled what he could...he stayed off channel 1 and used a VPN.

    Just to give you a basic list of controllables that do not involve latency or reforges:

    Tactics- Absolutely free. And if you hunt alone, you don't have to worry about what everyone else is doing and can experiment

    Bhafel hunter/huntress set- Adds a 15% damage multiplier to everything you do.

    Celtic Royal Crossbow- Extra pierce. Crossbow mastery has anti-defense added in

    Bohemian set- Extra magnum damage

    Languhiris Chaser set or Chinese armor- makes you fire faster. (My personal favorite)

    Dan tests- Extra damage

    Catering- Extra damage

    Red Ups- Multiply damage roughly 1/3 of shots fired

    Combo Cards- Can now be edited. Gold combo cards can be obtained in events or theater missions.

    Transformation- demi makes you fire faster, like having an extra final shot

    Pets- Understandably hard if you try to keep it free, but pet debuff effects stack. They also stack with Dance of Death

    Vision of Ladeca- Pew pew pew!

    Just tons and tons of things you can do.

    This is why I hate the whole Elf QQ fatalism around Archery. Everybody whines about reforges but there's so much more to it. Just because a guy can hit a fox for 80k with an elemental reforge doesn't mean the whole game revolves around that.

    You appeared to be offended, as I interpreted your sarcastic reply on my market claim, but it does make sense to associate a person holding an idea as a larger sea of disenchanted ideologues. It is alright to express offense in my view. It is simply a type of disagreement that can be debated in discussions. I was merely surprised, since you usually appear calm when posting here. :)

    The problem I have here isn't the complete lack of usability, but the lack of feasibility, which I feel are different. A skillset can still be used to a certain extent, but still feel outclassed by newer skillsets or additions. That doesn't mean the skillset was changed at all, but merely that it has been left in the dust by newer models, I.E. Power Creep.
    Ex. One could argue this skill set does thing A and thing B pretty well, but then comes along Thing C, which is a better version of Thing A, and Thing D is more reliable than Thing B.

    Thing C>Thing A
    Thing D> Thing B

    You can still use thing A and thing B, of course, but the existence of better options makes the newer skills what DVDs were to VHS tapes. Obsolete.

    I interpret your argument to be arguing against the notion that the skillset is broken or cannot be used. That isn't the idea I am pushing here. I am claiming that the skill set is obsolete due to better options that do not rely on shot of god or reforges.

    My claim is based on the idea that the damage is horrible without shot of god. With it, I imagine it can be quite great, but without, it isn't at all powerful compared to bashing an enemy to death, or the older method of chaincasted firebolts.

    Although Light of Ladeca is considerable. I have totally forgotten about that.

    That being said, I am researching the idea of VPNs, which I never looked to, but quite honestly, my inexperienced mind does not comprehend VPNs. Wouldn't the internet speed be a major factor, and one regarding a fixed distance? Not quite sure.
  • RheyRhey
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    edited November 5, 2017
    I live a few miles short of Nexon HQ. I still experience bad latency. I just gave up on certain skillsets viability all together cuz of it. :*

    Policroma
  • SherriSherri
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    I'm just sick of archery being the only thing elves are 'good' at. I hate using archery because half my shots at 80% miss!
    Not to mention a human can final hit everything and kill it all in like five seconds, I can't do anything!!
    Chain slash better be good for us or I'm gonna flip. Ugh.