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Dan tests are unbalanced and unfair

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  • BlortadBlortad
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    No popcorn gif from anyone today?
    Hardmuscle
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    edited August 27, 2017
    @Greta ~ We need popcorn! :D
    Blortad wrote: »
    No, I HAVE corrected it on my end. I really dont lag terribly badly. The whole point of all this, as I keep trying to say, is that not everyone has that option be it because of their own comfort level with system tweaks, their region, or whatever other limitations they may have. If you're wondering why im so adamant about this if it doesnt impact me personally its because you're wrong, and it does. It may not impact me directly, but the game being in this state with content this hard thats impossible to make easier means less people will play it in the longrun and it will only maintain its reputation for horrible unmanagable lag and multitudes of unfixed bugs. If the game gets less players and maintains its bad reputation resulting in even less players still, the game might eventually go the way of NA Grand Chase or EU Mabinogi and close, forcing em to start over at the very least. I like this game and would like it to be around for as long as possible, and it would be able to do that much more effectively if the devs would pull their heads from their collective asses and either make the content so ti can be done with lag or spruce up the netcode so the lag isn't so much of a problem for people who are computer illiterate.
    EU didn't close because of bugs (despite half their userbase playing here via proxy at the time) and you know it. I don't think it's really as bad as you claim. I'm not saying I don't believe it's not this bad for you, alone, but I don't see thousands of people pouring their guts out in support of this argument. I believe it's more on the client and lean towards the majority (like you implied) not knowing their ass from a hole in the ground.

    dxH3AXe.jpg
  • BlortadBlortad
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    @Greta ~ We need popcorn! :D
    Blortad wrote: »
    No, I HAVE corrected it on my end. I really dont lag terribly badly. The whole point of all this, as I keep trying to say, is that not everyone has that option be it because of their own comfort level with system tweaks, their region, or whatever other limitations they may have. If you're wondering why im so adamant about this if it doesnt impact me personally its because you're wrong, and it does. It may not impact me directly, but the game being in this state with content this hard thats impossible to make easier means less people will play it in the longrun and it will only maintain its reputation for horrible unmanagable lag and multitudes of unfixed bugs. If the game gets less players and maintains its bad reputation resulting in even less players still, the game might eventually go the way of NA Grand Chase or EU Mabinogi and close, forcing em to start over at the very least. I like this game and would like it to be around for as long as possible, and it would be able to do that much more effectively if the devs would pull their heads from their collective asses and either make the content so ti can be done with lag or spruce up the netcode so the lag isn't so much of a problem for people who are computer illiterate.
    Mabinogi EU didn't close because of bugs (despite half their userbase playing here via proxy at the time) and you know it. I don't think it's really as bad as you claim. I'm not saying I don't believe it's not this bad for you, alone, but I don't see thousands of people pouring their guts out in support of this argument. I believe it's more on the client-end and lean towards the majority (like you implied) not knowing their ass from a hole in the ground.

    There you go connecting dots that aren't there to try to spin my argument again. I didn't say Mabi EU closed due to bugs, I said it closed because it didnt have enough players for them to see worth in continuing to invest in it. I even used the exact phrase, "if the game gets less players" in my last post. Also, are you kidding me? Plenty of people have complained about lag them over in this very thread. If you want to see people complaining about lag, even people who make the same point I keep making in that no other game is nearly as bad with the lag as Mabinogi, go look at pretty much any thread discussing general problems with the game. There is even one going right now titled something to the effect of "list of things that annoy you with this game" where every few posts someone different complains about the lag followed by several people agreeing with them that the devs need to fix it.
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    Who said this?
    "It may not impact me directly, but the game being in this state with content this hard thats impossible to make easier means less people will play it in the longrun and it will only maintain its reputation for horrible unmanagable lag and multitudes of unfixed bugs. If the game gets less players and maintains its bad reputation resulting in even less players still, the game might eventually go the way of NA Grand Chase or EU Mabinogi and close, forcing em to start over at the very least."

  • GretaGreta
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    @Greta ~ We need popcorn! :D

    Did someone say popcorn???

    yNiBv8S.gif

    Here we go.

    I come to see forums and i see like 40 posts made here. It was clear to me that drama/arguing is going on here. :D
    HardmuscleErorservFeliceSherriBuffalosYokkaichi
  • BlortadBlortad
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    Who said this?
    "It may not impact me directly, but the game being in this state with content this hard thats impossible to make easier means less people will play it in the longrun and it will only maintain its reputation for horrible unmanagable lag and multitudes of unfixed bugs. If the game gets less players and maintains its bad reputation resulting in even less players still, the game might eventually go the way of NA Grand Chase or EU Mabinogi and close, forcing em to start over at the very least."

    Bold in case you missed where I specifically stated that getting LESS PLAYERS was the cause.
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
    Mabinogi Rep: 12,900
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    Blortad wrote: »
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    Who said this?
    "It may not impact me directly, but the game being in this state with content this hard thats impossible to make easier means less people will play it in the longrun and it will only maintain its reputation for horrible unmanagable lag and multitudes of unfixed bugs. If the game gets less players and maintains its bad reputation resulting in even less players still, the game might eventually go the way of NA Grand Chase or EU Mabinogi and close, forcing em to start over at the very least."

    Bold in case you missed where I specifically stated that getting LESS PLAYERS was the cause.
    ~ And what would be the cause of getting less players.... my dear Watson? hmmmm? .... Bugs.. maybe? (I wonder where that came from).

  • BlortadBlortad
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    edited August 27, 2017
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    Blortad wrote: »
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    Who said this?
    "It may not impact me directly, but the game being in this state with content this hard thats impossible to make easier means less people will play it in the longrun and it will only maintain its reputation for horrible unmanagable lag and multitudes of unfixed bugs. If the game gets less players and maintains its bad reputation resulting in even less players still, the game might eventually go the way of NA Grand Chase or EU Mabinogi and close, forcing em to start over at the very least."

    Bold in case you missed where I specifically stated that getting LESS PLAYERS was the cause.
    ~ And what would be the cause of getting less players.... my dear Watson? hmmmm? .... Bugs.. maybe? (I wonder where that came from).

    No Sherlock, let me break it down for you.

    bugs and lag = ragequits
    bugs and lag = bad reputation for bugs and lag

    ragequits = loss of old players

    bad reputation for bugs and lag = new players being repelled

    new players being repelled + loss of old players = ever-shrinking player count

    ever-shrinking player count -> eventual close due to lack of players unless something is done about it

    Put simply, bugs and lag cause a lack of players over time, then a lack of players causes eventual closure. The bugs do not cause the closure, the lack of players does. The lack of players is not cause by bugs and lag alone, but a large portion of it is. 80% of my friends list is people who I dont want to delete but dont play anymore because they quit due to lag, bugs, or both. Nearly all of my IRL friends USED to play Mabi, but no longer do because they all got sick of the game being a laggy bug-ridden mess and didnt enjoy it as much as I do, so they werent willing to stick it out in the hopes the situation improves. If you're trying to say that people quitting over endless bugs and lag doesnt make up a significant portion of all people who have ever quit Mabi, then you might as well try to convince us all that the sky isnt blue or that the earth is flat too while you're at it. The only thing I can say probably makes for more ragequits then bugs and lag with this game would be reforging.

    Maybe dan tests now too, lol
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    edited August 27, 2017
    EU was closed because they violated their contract. ~ That's not what I call a bug .. lol .. :D
    Blortad wrote: »
    No Sherlock, let me break it down for you.

    bugs and lag = ragequits
    bugs and lag = bad reputation for bugs and lag

    ragequits = loss of old players

    bad reputation for bugs and lag = new players being repelled

    new players being repelled + loss of old players = ever-shrinking player count

    ever-shrinking player count -> eventual close due to lack of players unless something is done about it

    Put simply, bugs and lag cause a lack of players over time, then a lack of players causes eventual closure. The bugs do not cause the closure, the lack of players does. The lack of players is not cause by bugs and lag alone, but a large portion of it is. 80% of my friends list is people who I dont want to delete but dont play anymore because they quit due to lag, bugs, or both. Nearly all of my IRL friends USED to play Mabi, but no longer do because they all got sick of the game being a laggy bug-ridden mess and didnt enjoy it as much as I do, so they werent willing to stick it out in the hopes the situation improves. If you're trying to say that people quitting over endless bugs and lag doesnt make up a significant portion of all people who have ever quit Mabi, then you might as well try to convince us all that the sky isnt blue or that the earth is flat too while you're at it. The only thing I can say probably makes for more ragequits then bugs and lag with this game would be reforging.

    Maybe dan tests now too, lol
    ↑↓
    Blortad wrote: »
    I didn't say Mabi EU closed due to bugs
    I need more coffee (and reforges are poison). :)

  • BlortadBlortad
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    EU was closed because they violated their contract. ~ That's not what I call a bug .. lol .. :D
    Blortad wrote: »
    No Sherlock, let me break it down for you.

    bugs and lag = ragequits
    bugs and lag = bad reputation for bugs and lag

    ragequits = loss of old players

    bad reputation for bugs and lag = new players being repelled

    new players being repelled + loss of old players = ever-shrinking player count

    ever-shrinking player count -> eventual close due to lack of players unless something is done about it

    Put simply, bugs and lag cause a lack of players over time, then a lack of players causes eventual closure. The bugs do not cause the closure, the lack of players does. The lack of players is not cause by bugs and lag alone, but a large portion of it is. 80% of my friends list is people who I dont want to delete but dont play anymore because they quit due to lag, bugs, or both. Nearly all of my IRL friends USED to play Mabi, but no longer do because they all got sick of the game being a laggy bug-ridden mess and didnt enjoy it as much as I do, so they werent willing to stick it out in the hopes the situation improves. If you're trying to say that people quitting over endless bugs and lag doesnt make up a significant portion of all people who have ever quit Mabi, then you might as well try to convince us all that the sky isnt blue or that the earth is flat too while you're at it. The only thing I can say probably makes for more ragequits then bugs and lag with this game would be reforging.

    Maybe dan tests now too, lol
    ↑↓
    Blortad wrote: »
    I didn't say Mabi EU closed due to bugs
    I need more coffee (and reforges are poison). :)

    Someone doesn't understand how cause and effect works apparently...

    If A caused B and B caused C, that does not mean that A caused C.
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    edited August 27, 2017
    Blortad wrote: »
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    EU was closed because they violated their contract. ~ That's not what I call a bug .. lol .. :D
    Blortad wrote: »
    No Sherlock, let me break it down for you.

    bugs and lag = ragequits
    bugs and lag = bad reputation for bugs and lag

    ragequits = loss of old players

    bad reputation for bugs and lag = new players being repelled

    new players being repelled + loss of old players = ever-shrinking player count

    ever-shrinking player count -> eventual close due to lack of players unless something is done about it

    Put simply, bugs and lag cause a lack of players over time, then a lack of players causes eventual closure. The bugs do not cause the closure, the lack of players does. The lack of players is not cause by bugs and lag alone, but a large portion of it is. 80% of my friends list is people who I dont want to delete but dont play anymore because they quit due to lag, bugs, or both. Nearly all of my IRL friends USED to play Mabi, but no longer do because they all got sick of the game being a laggy bug-ridden mess and didnt enjoy it as much as I do, so they werent willing to stick it out in the hopes the situation improves. If you're trying to say that people quitting over endless bugs and lag doesnt make up a significant portion of all people who have ever quit Mabi, then you might as well try to convince us all that the sky isnt blue or that the earth is flat too while you're at it. The only thing I can say probably makes for more ragequits then bugs and lag with this game would be reforging.

    Maybe dan tests now too, lol
    ↑↓
    Blortad wrote: »
    I didn't say Mabi EU closed due to bugs
    I need more coffee (and reforges are poison). :)

    Someone doesn't understand how cause and effect works apparently...

    If A caused B and B caused C, that does not mean that A caused C.
    100% of EU stopped playing when they lost their contract. Most of them were already here via proxy (against terms). You're implying the game is a lot buggier than it really is. I've been here since release, I know all too well what's up. 90% of the problems people have are literally between the keyboard and the chair; and I wish I could say I'm joking, but I can't. Especially not when they go out of their bloody way to prove it. :D

  • BlortadBlortad
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    ... duh they all stopped playing on EU servers when the EU servers closed, but that contract not getting a renewal didn't just happen for no reason cause someone somewhere felt like it one day, it happened because EU mabi was no longer worth the investment. When an mmo is no longer worth the investment its usually for one or both of 2 reasons, nobody is playing it, or nobody is buying anything for it. If nobody is playing it, then obviously there is that lack of players I mentioned. Players also generally don't quit a game unless there's a reason and the biggest reasons players quit mabi is lag, bugs, and reforges.

    As far as the causality thing is concerned, here's a great example to compare to. A match lights the fuse on a bundle of dynamite, the dynamite blows up a bridge. Did the match blow up the bridge? No, matches don't explode, explosions are required to blow things up. The thing that blew up the bridge was the dynamite, the match alone doesn't do anything to the bridge without the dynamite to light. Claiming that the match blew up the bridge sounds like an excuse a toddler would make when they're in trouble.
  • BlortadBlortad
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    Blortad wrote: »
    No Sherlock, let me break it down for you.

    I really wish I could have found a nice meme of Richard Nixon's head from Futurama saying "Oooooh Expletive deleted." after I posted that, but I'm too lazy to make one myself and cant find one I like enough.
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    edited August 27, 2017
    Blortad wrote: »
    ... duh they all stopped playing on EU servers when the EU servers closed, but that contract not getting a renewal didn't just happen for no reason cause someone somewhere felt like it one day, it happened because EU mabi was no longer worth the investment. When an mmo is no longer worth the investment its usually for one or both of 2 reasons, nobody is playing it, or nobody is buying anything for it. If nobody is playing it, then obviously there is that lack of players I mentioned. Players also generally don't quit a game unless there's a reason and the biggest reasons players quit mabi is lag, bugs, and reforges.

    As far as the causality thing is concerned, here's a great example to compare to. A match lights the fuse on a bundle of dynamite, the dynamite blows up a bridge. Did the match blow up the bridge? No, matches don't explode, explosions are required to blow things up. The thing that blew up the bridge was the dynamite, the match alone doesn't do anything to the bridge without the dynamite to light. Claiming that the match blew up the bridge sounds like an excuse a toddler would make when they're in trouble.
    It didn't happen because it was no longer worth the investment. It happened because all content was released at one time (a violation of contract). I still think this is more about you not being able to face the idea that this problem you have with lag is mostly client-side. o:)
    YZMO5vJ.jpg
    -- and no .. the biggest reason people quit is Boom on Step 6.. ~ :D

  • BlortadBlortad
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    edited August 27, 2017
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    YZMO5vJ.jpg


    I saw that one, but I was hoping for one with the Futurama Nixon behind it to be sure people got the exact reference I was making.

    I have no idea where you're getting your information about the EU close, I never heard anything like that but I didn't pay a huge amount of attention to the announcements regarding the EU situation past the fact that they were wiping a bunch of peoples character data and opening up NA to their IP's rather then doing a server merge. I remember hoping for an eventual NA/KR merge before that point and thinking if starting over is the cost, its not worth it, so honestly if that really is the case there might still be hope if they can work out a decent in-game translator. Even if that is accurate though, Grand Chase is still a good example and the overall point is still valid. Another good example is the Maplestory TCG. I happened to be playing that on closing week, they even said in announcements leading up to its close that the reason was lack of players. Grand Chase was exactly the same, I also played that on its closing week. Neither of those games player loss was due to bugs and lag but rather to their equivalent of reforges being, as hard as it is to believe this, worse then reforges, but neither of those games really had problems with lag and bugs that are a tenth as bad as mabinogi. Seriously, go take a look at that "list of things that annoy" thread and look at how much of it is caused by bugs and lag. To name a few, the "too far away" messages for things you are on top of, which is lag, skill lock bugs from focused fist and wind guard, and a large number of people complaining about lag and/or displacement, which is caused by lag. NA mabi being riddled with lag to an extreme beyond what is normal is nothing new and it amazes me that someone could play from the beginning and not know that. You must have been playing with a tweaked system the entire time I guess because I wasn't very computer literate myself when I first started playing in (I think) g2. I got to experience mabi lagging like crazy while every other game I played performed just fine before I started an IT degree and learned how to go about making amazing things run on a potato that someone connected a monitor to. With the sheer volume of people I have encountered in game and on the forums who have complained to me or around me about Mabi having lag many times worse than any other game they have ever played, I am amazed that anyone could claim everything is fine and lag must be the fault of the user or their specific machine. This games lag problems go way beyond the scope of random chance and stupid people playing on junk machines. I would buy a small few people who don't know what their talking about lieing about the performance of games other then mabi on their system, but there are far too many for that to be the case with all or even close to most of them. Out of all the players I talk to, I encounter more that either say they suffer from lag or had to fix lag with a system tweak for the game to be playable then I encounter players who say lag is not and never has been a problem for them. You would be very close to the only one. When this game requires system tweaks to be playable and the vast majority of other games work just fine without those same tweaks, there has to be something different about this game.
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    edited August 27, 2017
    Blortad wrote: »
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    YZMO5vJ.jpg


    I saw that one, but I was hoping for one with the Futurama Nixon behind it to be sure people got the exact reference I was making.

    I have no idea where you're getting your information about the EU close, I never heard anything like that but I didn't pay a huge amount of attention to the announcements regarding the EU situation past the fact that they were wiping a bunch of peoples character data and opening up NA to their IP's rather then doing a server merge. I remember hoping for an eventual NA/KR merge before that point and thinking if starting over is the cost, its not worth it, so honestly if that really is the case there might still be hope if they can work out a decent in-game translator. Even if that is accurate though, Grand Chase is still a good example and the overall point is still valid. Another good example is the Maplestory TCG. I happened to be playing that on closing week, they even said in announcements leading up to its close that the reason was lack of players. Grand Chase was exactly the same, I also played that on its closing week. Neither of those games player loss was due to bugs and lag but rather to their equivalent of reforges being, as hard as it is to believe this, worse then reforges, but neither of those games really had problems with lag and bugs that are a tenth as bad as mabinogi. Seriously, go take a look at that "list of things that annoy" thread and look at how much of it is caused by bugs and lag. To name a few, the "too far away" messages for things you are on top of, which is lag, skill lock bugs from focused fist and wind guard, and a large number of people complaining about lag and/or displacement, which is caused by lag. NA mabi being riddled with lag to an extreme beyond what is normal is nothing new and it amazes me that someone could play from the beginning and not know that. You must have been playing with a tweaked system the entire time I guess because I wasn't very computer literate myself when I first started playing in (I think) g2. I got to experience mabi lagging like crazy while every other game I played performed just fine before I started an IT degree and learned how to go about making amazing things run on a potato that someone connected a monitor to. With the sheer volume of people I have encountered in game and on the forums who have complained to me or around me about Mabi having lag many times worse than any other game they have ever played, I am amazed that anyone could claim everything is fine and lag must be the fault of the user or their specific machine. This games lag problems go way beyond the scope of random chance and stupid people playing on junk machines. I would buy a small few people who don't know what their talking about lieing about the performance of games other then mabi on their system, but there are far too many for that to be the case with all or even close to most of them. Out of all the players I talk to, I encounter more that either say they suffer from lag or had to fix lag with a system tweak for the game to be playable then I encounter players who say lag is not and never has been a problem for them. You would be very close to the only one.
    When did I imply not knowing something? I simply disagreed with your opinion of bugs (and the actual source of the problem). We're talking about the world-wide-web, where the average user doesn't know the difference between the internet and a browser, let alone the answer to every issue under the sun (how to prevent geek squad from screwing you over). You assumed I didn't know this because I dared prescribe you with an intellect greater than 'average' ... ~ I can't believe you'd insist I'm wrong to the point of belittlement .. lol ...

    The majority of lag complaints can be traced directly to a user's anti-virus service. That's the majority, but it doesn't account for it all. There are tons of other factors to consider... some are extremely obvious .. -- and others .. are not so obvious..... e.g. ~ http://map.norsecorp.com/

    Q4hEXGX.jpg




  • FeliceFelice
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    How has this not been locked down yet?

    This has devolved from a request on how to beat Dan Tests to just a back and forth argument over whether or not its a good or bad idea to disable optional services windows has on by default, between Hardmuscle, who I feel has more than made his point. and Blortard who is so set in his ways, it makes teaching a 70 year old woman how to use a computer seem do-able.

    I'll throw this out there.

    @Blortard : Have you dissabbled Nagle? http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Lag#Disabling_Nagle.27s_Algorithm

    Alternatively : http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Lag

    If you're going to spout the same BS about these links being untrustworthy, then you are spitting in the faces of 10+ years of Mabi users who have discovered these things and made them public knowledge.
    HardmuscleBuffalos
  • TNinjaTNinja
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    I for one am really interested in the script they're talking about.

    Don't think I saw any script on that site, just a list of things to shut down. If I could understand it.
    Buffalos
  • FrozareFrozare
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,015
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    edited August 27, 2017
    yeah I'm having trouble with the firebolt one. Combat wasn't hard. Moved it to other post.

    Did firebolt like 15 times and didn't pass it. Got annoyed and did smash, passed it right away.
  • SherriSherri
    Mabinogi Rep: 17,060
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    edited August 27, 2017
    OKAY. SO. My friend and I went after Water Cannon Dan 2 and my friend went after Smash Dan, I believe 3?
    We both passed. However, when we went to talk to the Advancement Guide, we can't 'Advance the skill'.
    It counted as us passing but it won't let us rank them up! So we both wasted a day!
    WHAT GIVES?
This discussion has been closed.