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Elf buff for Strength and debuff for intelligence?

Comments

  • Crisis1Crisis1
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,765
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    edited March 16, 2017
    Crisis1 wrote: »
    the only thing i use bash for is entertainment like "beating girgashy in the face with a drum stick" and "slapping friends in pvp with a leek". It doesn't do meaningful damage for us elves and it will never reach the potential damage since we can't use CRK, can't use FGS, and just lack the str.

    1. Anything less than the best is meaningless?
    2.Not anymore.

    Keep in mind that, even looking at this with a competitive end-game skew, there's that newfangled ultrasword that even Elves can use. Not easily acquired, but I assume it's the best, and elves can bash with it without any sort of damage penalty.


    your so call "potential" and solution to elf problem is to get a Soulna Blade. you can't expect me to take you seriously. Clearly have not done your homework on How Get Soulna Blade 101.
    KagaSylviaWolfeNilrem
  • EllisyaEllisya
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,315
    Posts: 485
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    edited March 16, 2017
    Too many hardcore players ;~;
    /logout

    As a player who have played this game over decade including foreign server, I'm like meh- whenever they nerf/buff stuffs. Being strong is good but don't ya think people are asking way too much or way too detail? For me, it feels like Eweca skills are okay as temp. stat boost. But Ladeca? it's more like 1.5 for Elf archers and 0.5 for human and giant. But still, like I said above, it's more 'meh' then 'yayyyyy!'.
  • AlmostNotsuperAlmostNotsuper
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,100
    Posts: 278
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    edited March 16, 2017
    So, and I can't believe nobody has pointed this out yet, what is with that weird dichotomy? It is obviously supposed to be Strength/Dexterity and Close Combat/Archery, with maybe Will/Intelligence if you really wanted to push the comparison. I mean giants are typecast as the 'hit things with smash/bash race' and elves (much to your dismay) are the 'shoot things with a bow, pew pew' race. Comparing an elf's int to a giant's str is a skewed argument, those two things were never meant to be juxtaposed. You might as well start talking about which one of them is the better bard or cleric.

    I think I can answer this part, at least.

    Magic is good now, and archery isn't. [img]http://forum2.nexon.net/images/smilies/rolleyes.png"; title="Roll Eyes" (Sarcastic)[/img]

    More seriously, some poor DevCat team member made the mistake of describing elves magical nature as "Magical advantages", and ever since, elves have assumed that they simply forgot to program these advantages in (except for the Ice Spear Mp reduction and Increased base Mana pool), and that if they keep complaining, one day they'll remember to put them in. When in reality, that meaning was never intended to begin with, at least not to the degree that the more vocal elves on the forums seem to expect.
    Crisis1 wrote: »
    Crisis1 wrote: »
    the only thing i use bash for is entertainment like "beating girgashy in the face with a drum stick" and "slapping friends in pvp with a leek". It doesn't do meaningful damage for us elves and it will never reach the potential damage since we can't use CRK, can't use FGS, and just lack the str.

    1. Anything less than the best is meaningless?
    2.Not anymore.

    Keep in mind that, even looking at this with a competitive end-game skew, there's that newfangled ultrasword that even Elves can use. Not easily acquired, but I assume it's the best, and elves can bash with it without any sort of damage penalty.


    your so call "potential" and solution to elf problem is to get a Soulna Blade. you can't expect me to take you seriously. Clearly have not done your homework on How Get Soulna Blade 101.

    Care to read the quote you referenced?

    I did not say it was a solution - I said that if we're looking at it from the perspective of trying to achieve competitive end-game damage (i.e. the best - what I had no choice but to assume you meant by 'meaningful damage'), that this is what an elf is capable of with Bash, even if it's not exactly realistic to expect that every elf has one of these (and I never claimed that is was), and it's equal to that of a human or giant, even though elves are supposed to be the worst at combat, going by the lore. Compare that to giants, who have no Soluna atlatl/bow, and have only their throwing attack.

    You don't seem to get it. You're simultaneously claiming that Bash is useless, and that elves should have it, indicating that it does indeed matter, does have a use. Or is that not what you're claiming? If it's not, then perhaps we agree.
  • KagaKaga
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,960
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    "some poor DevCat team member made the mistake of describing elves magical nature as "Magical advantages"

    Didn't know you worked for DevCat to know this.
  • AlmostNotsuperAlmostNotsuper
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,100
    Posts: 278
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    Kaga wrote: »
    "some poor DevCat team member made the mistake of describing elves magical nature as "Magical advantages"

    Didn't know you worked for DevCat to know this.

    If not from DevCAT, then where did you get the idea that elves should have magical advantages? .-.

    I'm not saying that the wording was a literal mistake, I'm saying, based on their actions, what they meant by that, and what you think they meant by that, are obviously completely different things. That, or they really are the most inept game developers of all time.
  • PepperPepper
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,010
    Posts: 102
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    Lutetium wrote: »
    Kaga wrote: »
    Like I said, WITHOUT cater.
    Giants can also gain stats through transformation.

    I already know it's not "that" easy to get str capped for elves without trans/cater being an end-game elf myself.
    But it's "easier" for giants to cap int without trans/cater.

    I am more concerned about the int though. 155 more int. What's your total level? (too lazy to get up to 200 to see for myself)

    I don't believe elves can hit 1500 without the catering boost (it's only 8k gold per 20 mins of boost with hot chocolate though so that's a nonissue to me honestly). I do however agree with you about the int issue, giants and humans both can cap int quite easily (though if you go for age 11/12 on giant for most str+will from levelup you get just over 1200~ int at 200/50 cl/expl and have to use the cater+link like elf does for str but you're also sitting on 1400~ str). I also believe giants do not have this secondary 1700 cap on their int boost from shine of eweca like elves do for str though I cannot confirm this since my giant isn't maxed out like my elf yet.

    As for my elf's total level, it's 23187 and 4190 exploration. I would also like to add that with this patch, due to elves getting a reduced dex bonus vs human from shine of eweca, the already existing gap of humans having more archery damage (although longer mag cd) has only grown further apart, and with the int it's shifted the magic endgame from being balanced with the same damage endgame to being giant > human > elf, so elves have comparatively only become further weaker in the classes they are claimed to excel in when you read the in-game character creation text blurb.

    Some final thoughts; vision of ladeca is a nice boost to archery (for 15 mins per 36 min game day) but tries to shoehorn the player into using archery when the game is suppose to be a "sandbox" according to Kim's interviews which feels more like a loosely enforced restriction upon those who choose elf (I personally chose elf with the intent of playing mage as well so I understand where you're coming from feeling cucked by the reduced int bonus for elf) and as someone who's been playing their elf since g13 launched, I personally feel (after much playing of the game, as well as crunching the numbers for all the races) there's no reason to play an elf at this point in Mabinogi's lifespan, especially with the upcoming giant buff on the Korean test server allowing full swing use with 0 cooldown charge with 0 cooldown during wind guard along with allowing movement, weapon switching, and potion use now like final hit on humans (don't even get me started on final hit). With all that in mind, I've started playing my giant as my main character since there's really nothing for me to lose by not doing so, even if there's an elf buff in the future, my elf is basically maxed out already, but may as well just play giant now since they've been buffed so much and are only going to get buffed further within the coming couple years (with how slow NA nexon gets patch updates, we still haven't gotten the ninja update after almost 2 years). I would personally suggest the same to other elf players though, just play on giant or play on human if you like archery since your crash shots will hit harder than an elf's anyways, elves are just in a disastrous state of imbalance right now and DevCat has 0 interest in balancing this game much less doing anything about the engine's stability and performance on modern hardware.

    I apologize if this comes off as ranty but these are my legitimate thoughts on the subject as someone who as mentioned has played an elf enough to pump 23k levels into it's total.
    My elf is maxed also at 22671 exploration 6985 . And all my skills are rk 1 I am working on a human and giant who are sitting at 7k. But my heart still belongs to my elf and range. Its to bad they had to nerf it 6 years ago and now magic.
  • KagaKaga
    Mabinogi Rep: 4,960
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    Kaga wrote: »
    "some poor DevCat team member made the mistake of describing elves magical nature as "Magical advantages"

    Didn't know you worked for DevCat to know this.

    If not from DevCAT, then where did you get the idea that elves should have magical advantages? .-.

    I'm not saying that the wording was a literal mistake, I'm saying, based on their actions, what they meant by that, and what you think they meant by that, are obviously completely different things. That, or they really are the most inept game developers of all time.

    Nah, I am saying the part where you said that some DevCat member mistakely described elves magical nature as "Magical advantages".
    Just sayin'
  • PepperPepper
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,010
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    if you could actually hit something
    Keop
  • darkchaos125darkchaos125
    Mabinogi Rep: 965
    Posts: 44
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    edited March 16, 2017
    I said that partly as a joke, but "True OP Race" is the part I see as crazy.

    I'm not saying elves couldn't use a buff, but when elves rant on the forums, they tend to completely ignore their own advantages. This may not be what you mean, but it sounds like 'Elves should be the best at magic and archery, and just as good as humans in everything else", and it seems to be an underlying message in most elf QQing. Maybe it's just me.

    Anyway, I'm glad you can relate, because it's difficult to put into words. I don't want elves to be shafted - I want everything to be balanced, and that includes elves, giants, and humans all having their own equally valuable (in total) things. But it's really annoying how elves won't stop complaining, and more specifically, exactly how they go about it - often listing the strengths of giants and humans, and then ignoring their corresponding strengths . This is why I try to correct this whenever I see it.

    Anyway, I see what Kaga meant about breaking the hard cap now. Not gonna lie, while I was looking forward to something being able to do this, I'm pretty disappointed in this method. I always thought that Transformations (and only transformations) should do it. The buffs are basically just meaningless power creep.

    Honestly when it comes to bash, having bash is better than not having it and with the nice bonus damage it gives, any elf complaint about bash is a lil silly

    As for elf QQ, we don't ignore our advantages. The problem is that other races don't have issues with their own disadvantages that can be countered with their other strengths or perks. Elves don't have anything to offset their disadvantages in the same manner other races do.

    "It's mostly just that some (most) of the time elf QQ tends to be hyperbolic and unyielding, and everything no matter how seemingly unrelated or silly it is feeds into Nexon's secret war with them. There is an imbalance and addressing it is reasonable, but a lot of elves tend to"

    I agree that it can tend to be hyperbolic, and its a secret war as silly as it sounds in 'equal treatment' and 'equal opportunities' if you get what i mean lol. Elves tend to ramble because you'd have to play elf for a 'really' long while. After using archery for so long, you feel cheated. One of my biggest gripes is the controversial/contradictions within the game mechanics/game logic where giants are seen as 'poor' in archery but have no need to aim or dexterity, can instant hit anything within 2k range, as opposed to elves who are the most dexterous, which means we'd have the highest accuracy.

    This may sound childish but it really is annoying being interrupted of your skill/talent you main like Team Skull is in your face slapping your coffee during break. Those videos are so hilarious though.

    I think elves are meant to be shafted at the way things are going with the renovation update -> racial update

    "I said that partly as a joke, but "True OP Race" is the part I see as crazy."

    I think true OP race only if they were accurately depicted as masters of magic, and magic in itself is OP. Personally I am fine with humans being the OP or master race. I just wish to see more 'balance' to the giants/elves on either side of the balance scale.
    Have...you been in game since the update? Those crazy instant load magnums are scary.

    That..I believe requires certain conditions/requirements for that to happen, if you're talking about spamming those blank shots and I have not yet achieved that yet...I'm still more or less nearly there in mastering sog.

    Instant load mag shots mean nothing if you can't utilize ....well whatehver the term players use these days, I'll just say zero shot for sake of convenience to distinguish from sog. Only those who have been taught or stuck around early mabi days would know how to do that.
    AlmostNotsuper
  • LutetiumLutetium
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,230
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    edited March 16, 2017
    If not from DevCAT, then where did you get the idea that elves should have magical advantages? .-.
    a493f9d108.png

    I think that's pretty straight forward.
    That, or they really are the most inept game developers of all time.
    94b68f6d04.png

    I agree. However that isn't to say a poorly coded imbalanced train wreck of a game can't also be enjoyable, I mean just look at any Bethesda game since the masterpiece that was Daggerfall, horrible games that only get worse and worse as hardware gets better and better but enjoyable for thousands of hours of playtime none the less. Mabinogi really could be a great game if they were willing to put the cash into the development time it would take to rewrite the engine from scratch while maintaining compatability with existing content and character data.

    But from a business point of view rather than a player's, that isn't going to turn an immediate immense profit so it's better to simply keep cashing in on the game until the player base dissolves by releasing more high priced gachapons full of rehashed wings in fixed colors at super low sub 1% odds that could have been dyable from the start (again, that isn't profitable). At the end of the day though, the developers might actually have a desire to do that, but we cant get in touch with them and even if we could it simply doesn't matter what the developer wants because that isnt what corporate wants and corporate just wants what gets the most cash.

    EDIT: a bit of my post got cut off at the end so I corrected it.
    SherriSylviaWolfeAlmostNotsuperEunyoHazurahKeopHiroki05DaktaroCrisis1Nilrem
  • PannyaPannya
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    Kaga wrote: »
    Not sure why people don't get it.

    idk, maybe because they are not weak, they are actually the strongest and most cheaty race on the game and ppl that says the opposite use to be newbies that have no idea how to use an elf o.O
  • ApollodorusApollodorus
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,665
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    I agree that it can tend to be hyperbolic, and its a secret war as silly as it sounds in 'equal treatment' and 'equal opportunities' if you get what i mean lol. Elves tend to ramble because you'd have to play elf for a 'really' long while. After using archery for so long, you feel cheated. One of my biggest gripes is the controversial/contradictions within the game mechanics/game logic where giants are seen as 'poor' in archery but have no need to aim or dexterity, can instant hit anything within 2k range, as opposed to elves who are the most dexterous, which means we'd have the highest accuracy.

    This may sound childish but it really is annoying being interrupted of your skill/talent you main like Team Skull is in your face slapping your coffee during break. Those videos are so hilarious though.

    I think elves are meant to be shafted at the way things are going with the renovation update -> racial update

    Ok, so this is part of what I mean though. Elves in no way were shafted by this update, humans and giants weren't favored and elves received no major disadvantages. Yet the elven community is acting as though not making elves OP in a specific and non-archery manner is synonymous with them being wronged. I admit that elves are a disadvantaged, in fact I opened saying as much, but every time there is some skill update or race change it turns into this huge battle again and again about how elves are always given the short end of the stick...and their not. I mean giants ability is ok if you are doing close combat, but the human's new skill sucks, and sure it is restricted to archery but elves skill is by far the best. Just take your win.

    As for the stats, well I don't know if you know this but there aren't a lot of giants that use Dex/Int. My giant certainly has no use for them, and yet receives less STR/WILL under the current buffs. It's equal, this update TREATS ELVES FAIRLY. No, it doesn't solve all the problem with the elves, and elves should receive a wider degree of support at some point, but please stop making battles where there are none. Not getting what you wanted and being treated unfairly are not the same thing, and you shouldn't complain at every update that they didn't fix your problem like they are out to get you.

    I'm not saying that you shouldn't articulate what you want, just that you shouldn't jump on every perceived wrong and cry wolf. The more you complain about things that aren't a problem the less people will listen to you about the actual problems elves have, and that isn't a good outcome for anyone. This update is fine, not groundbreaking, but still pretty good for elves overall. Just admit that it was a step forward (however small you may think it is) and move on.
    AlmostNotsuperHiroki05Sherri
  • darkchaos125darkchaos125
    Mabinogi Rep: 965
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    edited March 16, 2017

    Ok, so this is part of what I mean though. Elves in no way were shafted by this update, humans and giants weren't favored and elves received no major disadvantages. Yet the elven community is acting as though not making elves OP in a specific and non-archery manner is synonymous with them being wronged. I admit that elves are a disadvantaged, in fact I opened saying as much, but every time there is some skill update or race change it turns into this huge battle again and again about how elves are always given the short end of the stick...and their not. I mean giants ability is ok if you are doing close combat, but the human's new skill sucks, and sure it is restricted to archery but elves skill is by far the best. Just take your win.

    As for the stats, well I don't know if you know this but there aren't a lot of giants that use Dex/Int. My giant certainly has no use for them, and yet receives less STR/WILL under the current buffs. It's equal, this update TREATS ELVES FAIRLY. No, it doesn't solve all the problem with the elves, and elves should receive a wider degree of support at some point, but please stop making battles where there are none. Not getting what you wanted and being treated unfairly are not the same thing, and you shouldn't complain at every update that they didn't fix your problem like they are out to get you.

    I'm not saying that you shouldn't articulate what you want, just that you shouldn't jump on every perceived wrong and cry wolf. The more you complain about things that aren't a problem the less people will listen to you about the actual problems elves have, and that isn't a good outcome for anyone. This update is fine, not groundbreaking, but still pretty good for elves overall. Just admit that it was a step forward (however small you may think it is) and move on.

    The elven community isn't about making the elf OP, and not being OP isn't equiv to being wronged, thats not what the elven community thinks at all.

    The new update doesn't 'shaft' elves per se, but the shaft elves talk about is a little different than what you're thinking of. Not a good example but I'll just use the Native Americans as an example, fast forward 200 years and wallah.

    And I appreciate your point. The issue isn't whether the update shafts the elf (to elves, its equiv to being shafted due to-), its the gap that has hardly had any change in balance improvement. When a race repeatedly gets the short end of the stick (which doesn't matter when its three races, its not even that big), it adds up to become something 'outdated' for lack of better wording.

    It's tiresome for every player including elves to talk about 'fair treatment' or 'equality', but when elves ask for better treatment in balancing because Giant Sam and Human Sarah gets desserts or an allowance raise, and the elves get slightly less or same as usual, well, now I'm getting a bit political with taxes/reforms lol. To the elf, it really makes no sense, seeing the treatment they been getting. Those who aren't elves who realize this finally, never go back to thinking otherwise.

    I believe you when you say giants don't use dex/int, yet at the same time I scratch my head cuz I see a lot of giants with celtic staves since renovation update.
  • MissDevichiMissDevichi
    Mabinogi Rep: 625
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    edited March 16, 2017

    Ok, so this is part of what I mean though. Elves in no way were shafted by this update, humans and giants weren't favored and elves received no major disadvantages. Yet the elven community is acting as though not making elves OP in a specific and non-archery manner is synonymous with them being wronged. I admit that elves are a disadvantaged, in fact I opened saying as much, but every time there is some skill update or race change it turns into this huge battle again and again about how elves are always given the short end of the stick...and their not. I mean giants ability is ok if you are doing close combat, but the human's new skill sucks, and sure it is restricted to archery but elves skill is by far the best. Just take your win.

    As for the stats, well I don't know if you know this but there aren't a lot of giants that use Dex/Int. My giant certainly has no use for them, and yet receives less STR/WILL under the current buffs. It's equal, this update TREATS ELVES FAIRLY. No, it doesn't solve all the problem with the elves, and elves should receive a wider degree of support at some point, but please stop making battles where there are none. Not getting what you wanted and being treated unfairly are not the same thing, and you shouldn't complain at every update that they didn't fix your problem like they are out to get you.

    I'm not saying that you shouldn't articulate what you want, just that you shouldn't jump on every perceived wrong and cry wolf. The more you complain about things that aren't a problem the less people will listen to you about the actual problems elves have, and that isn't a good outcome for anyone. This update is fine, not groundbreaking, but still pretty good for elves overall. Just admit that it was a step forward (however small you may think it is) and move on.

    The elven community isn't about making the elf OP, and not being OP isn't equiv to being wronged, thats not what the elven community thinks at all.

    The new update doesn't 'shaft' elves per se, but the shaft elves talk about is a little different than what you're thinking of. Not a good example but I'll just use the Native Americans as an example, fast forward 200 years and wallah.

    And I appreciate your point. The issue isn't whether the update shafts the elf (to elves, its equiv to being shafted due to-), its the gap that has hardly had any change in balance improvement. When a race repeatedly gets the short end of the stick (which doesn't matter when its three races, its not even that big), it adds up to become something 'outdated' for lack of better wording.

    It's tiresome for every player including elves to talk about 'fair treatment' or 'equality', but when elves ask for better treatment in balancing because Giant Sam and Human Sarah gets desserts or an allowance raise, and the elves get slightly less or same as usual, well, now I'm getting a bit political with taxes/reforms lol. To the elf, it really makes no sense, seeing the treatment they been getting. Those who aren't elves who realize this finally, never go back to thinking otherwise.

    I believe you when you say giants don't use dex/int, yet at the same time I scratch my head cuz I see a lot of giants with celtic staves since renovation update.

    The staves have been spat out of many gachas. Not hard to get.
  • darkchaos125darkchaos125
    Mabinogi Rep: 965
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    The staves have been spat out of many gachas. Not hard to get.

    What i was trying to imply was how unexpected it was, seeing more and more giants with magic staves, and focusing on mage talent up till now, it wasn't the staves I was surprised though.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    Pannya wrote: »
    Kaga wrote: »
    Not sure why people don't get it.

    idk, maybe because they are not weak, they are actually the strongest and most cheaty race on the game and ppl that says the opposite use to be newbies that have no idea how to use an elf o.O

    Or not rich enough. Which is the problem. The cash gap between reforged archery and unreforged is large. 12k crits are possible with s6 bows. Reforges can up it to 20k to 60k to even 100k. The mechancis, unejoyable sure, but archery as a whole is the premier MMO skill you can't use to its full potential without going premium, with archery either being lackluster without reforges to being overpowered with.

    This is balanced in such a way so only wealthy and lucky players can achieve this.

    My solution? Perhaps we should shorten the gap, but linearly so that is noticeable for base maxed archery rather than starting out. Perhaps we should redo the whole reforge system.

    Once can argue that you can buy gold, but gold is so much easier when you are reforged, such as VHM Girgashiy spam I believe.
    AlmostNotsuperSherriHazurahNilrem
  • MeonketerMeonketer
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    VHM Girg runs are 10k/run, which takes ~1 minute assuming you have enough damage to ensure it getting low enough to be quickly killed after blades drop.
    Conflict HM is ~15k/run and takes about as long with less damage required, as well as being able to use crystals to boost the gold gain.
  • KagaKaga
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    Pannya wrote: »
    Kaga wrote: »
    Not sure why people don't get it.

    idk, maybe because they are not weak, they are actually the strongest and most cheaty race on the game and ppl that says the opposite use to be newbies that have no idea how to use an elf o.O

    Not sure who you are referring to or sarcasm.
  • OrkaneOrkane
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    Pannya wrote: »
    Kaga wrote: »
    Not sure why people don't get it.

    idk, maybe because they are not weak, they are actually the strongest and most cheaty race on the game and ppl that says the opposite use to be newbies that have no idea how to use an elf o.O

    Or not rich enough. Which is the problem. The cash gap between reforged archery and unreforged is large. 12k crits are possible with s6 bows. Reforges can up it to 20k to 60k to even 100k. The mechancis, unejoyable sure, but archery as a whole is the premier MMO skill you can't use to its full potential without going premium, with archery either being lackluster without reforges to being overpowered with.

    This is balanced in such a way so only wealthy and lucky players can achieve this.

    My solution? Perhaps we should shorten the gap, but linearly so that is noticeable for base maxed archery rather than starting out. Perhaps we should redo the whole reforge system.

    Once can argue that you can buy gold, but gold is so much easier when you are reforged, such as VHM Girgashiy spam I believe.
    12k crits are possible with s6 bows.
    s6 bows.
    s6 bows.

    I see Julie left a strong impression on you.
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
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    Meonketer wrote: »
    VHM Girg runs are 10k/run, which takes ~1 minute assuming you have enough damage to ensure it getting low enough to be quickly killed after blades drop.
    Conflict HM is ~15k/run and takes about as long with less damage required, as well as being able to use crystals to boost the gold gain.
    I was referring to the earlier one, where it dropped 50k, but Devs had to nerf it before everyone who could actually do it made well over hundreds of millions.