Check out all of the details of this month's Patch Notes, featuring the 16th Anniversary and VIP Renewal Update! https://mabinogi.nexon.net/news/90098/16th-anniversary-and-vip-renewal-patch-notes-march-14th
[NEW MILLETIANS] Please note that all new forum users have to be approved before posting. This process can take up to 24 hours, and we appreciate your patience.
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the Nexon Forums Code of Conduct. You have to register before you can post, so you can log in or create a forum name above to proceed. Thank you for your visit!
Closed

REMOVE CHAIN AS A BEGINNER TALENT DURING REBIRTH

ChakylinChakylin
Mabinogi Rep: 1,125
Posts: 24
Member
in Feedback and Suggestions
I think we can all agree, this talent is not for beginners. Not only do you need to complete a story line, you have to make sure you're finished with g20 (which isn't offered to characters under level 500) and can hold your own in the Baltane missions to work on getting Raging Spike and Bachram Explosion. On top of that, beginners won't exactly be able to solo Coill Abyss and farm hornets/ancients for the crystals needed for Spinning Slasher. I'm worried about the (few) new players we get getting discouraged when they pick this as their first talent. Not only that, it makes Chain seem easier than other talents like Fighter and Archery, both of which are suitable to new players and do not require main storyline completion.
ShadydayzJazmynYokkaichiYangKoeteGretaGodrickTBPip-BoyErorservImaizumiMediaKleptoand 10 others.

Comments

  • GandorEUGandorEU
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,195
    Posts: 10
    Member
    edited December 21, 2017
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    Whether or not these things are true... how do they affect your game play? It's not as though you're being forced to begin as Chain Slasher, and until you're a total level of 1000 you can rebirth (change your talent) every single day. ~ I don't see the emergency here. :|

    You think from perspective of long time player that knows the game well , now try to put yourself in mind-frame of completely new player that has no idea about this game.How he or she will feel about Mabinogi if they start playing this game with such "advanced" class? the first impression they will get will be bad and as result they will end up dropping the game most likely :(
    YangKoeteGoldtiger01ImaizumiTheNyanCatSherriBehelitSiniavokajaSphyra21
  • YangKoeteYangKoete
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,175
    Posts: 266
    Member
    edited December 21, 2017
    Most newbies I know see Ninja and go;"WOW! THAT SOUNDS AWESOME!" and probably do the same with Chain Slash.

    If anything, they should make some classes available only at a specific cumulative level. Stuff like Mercantile, Construct Alchemist, Dual Guns, Puppetry and Chain Slash seem like they shouldn't be available for beginners.
    Goldtiger01XxBearslayerxXErorservSherriSiniavokajaSphyra21offwithyourheads
  • TNinjaTNinja
    Mabinogi Rep: 9,265
    Posts: 1,180
    Member
    The talent itself isn't even great as a starting point either. It's a largely disruptive talent which most of the time screws over someone, making it bad for team play, and the knockdown rules are a bit more complicated than other talent. On the same levels as guns and ninjas, I would say.
  • THICCthighssavelivesTHICCthighssavelives
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,855
    Posts: 790
    Member
    100% agree with Chakylin, even though it does not "affect my gameplay." You have to think about the new player's experience and first impressions and not just think about yourself.
  • ZuomoZuomo
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,015
    Posts: 150
    Member
    As hardmuscle said, you get rebirths daily, and have your hand held in the process of both choosing a talent and rebirthing as a new player. People will still choose it because it's new, even if you hid it away behind all other talents, they'd probably choose it, with how it's all around them. You'll notice that with most games is, as soon as a new class comes out, everyone is playing it. The ones that don't like it can simply rebirth. Even if they are over 1k, it's only a week nowadays.

    Now. I made a whole new character to get back into mabi with. Building it from 0 with no help from anything. I've personally had a fun time with chain slash, it's not a hard talent to use and does decent damage. I can't get half the skills, yeah, but it gives me something else to work towards at least.

    In the end moving the talent just seems unnecessary at this point, it doesn't make the game unplayable, nor take the fun away from it. The only reason I say to move it is because I'd prefer the beginner talent page to be just basic classes (Archer, mage, close combat, maybe fighter) To me the beauty of mabi was always that you can choose whatever you want, and you worked with it.
    [Deleted User]YellowBin
  • lceCreamlceCream
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,205
    Posts: 199
    Member
    edited December 21, 2017
    Wow. You make it sound like the class is unplayable by newbs. So what if some skills are locked? The core skills are still there. I'm too lazy to unlock skills and I still have a great time with chain.
    The thing is chain IS BETTER than archery and fighter. The high skill % and OP AOE and single target is insane. Also cutthroat is 100+ max damage.

    The only bad thing about chain is that newbs play it and then switch to other talents and wonder why they're all so weak
    Blissfulkill
  • Lucious_Loracio1Lucious_Loracio1
    Mabinogi Rep: 795
    Posts: 8
    Member
    This is actually a problem with a lot of what DEVcat does. They release something new, make it grossly overpowered compared to some earlier talents, then forget to even balance the talents that came before accordingly. Making the new talent much more sought after. Mabi these days is just, "Activate skill, click area, watch everything die." Rinse and repeat.

    Why bother playing the Warrior talent when you can get better (and faster) results playing as a Chain Slasher?

    Fix your game DEV.
    YangKoeteSheenaBlissfulkillImaizumiskpkionSherriRihoshiSiniavokajaTHICCthighssavelives
  • lceCreamlceCream
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,205
    Posts: 199
    Member
    edited December 21, 2017
    This is actually a problem with a lot of what DEVcat does. They release something new, make it grossly overpowered compared to some earlier talents, then forget to even balance the talents that came before accordingly. Making the new talent much more sought after. Mabi these days is just, "Activate skill, click area, watch everything die." Rinse and repeat.

    Why bother playing the Warrior talent when you can get better (and faster) results playing as a Chain Slasher?

    Fix your game DEV.

    I see warriors and mages all the time. Archers and alchemists, however... they're extinct
    YangKoete
  • FayeKaibaFayeKaiba
    Mabinogi Rep: 10,670
    Posts: 886
    Member
    This is actually a problem with a lot of what DEVcat does. They release something new, make it grossly overpowered compared to some earlier talents, then forget to even balance the talents that came before accordingly. Making the new talent much more sought after. Mabi these days is just, "Activate skill, click area, watch everything die." Rinse and repeat.

    Why bother playing the Warrior talent when you can get better (and faster) results playing as a Chain Slasher?

    Fix your game DEV.

    They don't need to fix their game because having chain slash as a beginning talent isn't breaking the game.


    @Thread - What if a new player just wants to try out chainslash for 24 hours before using their daily rebirth to go into another class? Removing this option is completely stupid and locks the player into not being able to try out every class. That is one thing that sets Mabi apart from ALL MMO's, there is no class lock, there is no "get to lv 100 and you can now access this class" You have the options to do what you want and when you want. Limiting the player to what they can and can't do would make a player feel sided and might make them second doubt continuing to play.
    LeineiM0rnedil
  • ChakylinChakylin
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,125
    Posts: 24
    Member
    edited December 22, 2017
    I don't agree with having talents behind a level wall. I'm also not saying it shouldn't be a talent beginners can choose. I think it needs to be taken off the beginner tab. However, I think I made some valid points that it can discourage new players, especially because of the fact that you need to have generations done to fully utilize it. Yeah they can rb in 24 hours, but I know personally, I'd be pretty bummed if something that looked so cool wasn't available for me to fully use when the game is spoon-feeding it to me to try out.

    Obviously, chain is better than a lot of older talents. No one was saying its not. I'm just pointing out that by labeling it a beginner talent, they're claiming its significantly easier than other talents (which it obviously isn't since there are plenty of vets that don't have the skill yet). They're also comparing it to Ninja and CC, which are both super easy.
    GretaJazmyn
  • NegumikoNegumiko
    Mabinogi Rep: 9,775
    Posts: 1,309
    Member
    I don't see the problem with any new player starting with chain slash. the story for it is long but was very easy to do. you don't have to learn all the advanced chain skills all at once. there are many mage skills that require similar requirements to learn high level skills, the 2nd dorcha crystal is basically the new 2nd page of icespear cause of low drop rates and being expensive on the player market. coil abyss passes can't be traded and are rare drops in shadow missions which would encourage players to play shadow missions and level more. the 3rd dorcha crystal could encourage players to use their fishing skill which mostly improves stamina and will. new players should be free to start with any talent they want and if it doesn't work out they can always rebirth the next day and try something else. even with just the skills that are easy to get you can still fight with the chain slash just fine.
    YellowBin
  • ChakylinChakylin
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,125
    Posts: 24
    Member
    edited December 23, 2017
    Iunno, I see a lot more negatives than positives about it. As someone who genuinely follows the story, it bothers me that you'd be thrown in and the Aces won't make much sense either.

    Also, mage isn't listed as a beginner talent. I agree with what you say but that kind of further proves my point.
    GretaSherri
  • JazmynJazmyn
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,595
    Posts: 1,009
    Member
    edited December 23, 2017
    lceCream wrote: »
    This is actually a problem with a lot of what DEVcat does. They release something new, make it grossly overpowered compared to some earlier talents, then forget to even balance the talents that came before accordingly. Making the new talent much more sought after. Mabi these days is just, "Activate skill, click area, watch everything die." Rinse and repeat.

    Why bother playing the Warrior talent when you can get better (and faster) results playing as a Chain Slasher?

    Fix your game DEV.

    I see warriors and mages all the time. Archers and alchemists, however... they're extinct

    I recently became grandmaster archer and Im weak when it comes to surviving. And alchemy is ruined, on a different character I am unable to advance past alchemy mastery rank D due to being unable to make crystals, so thats why you dont see alchemists.

    (How long has it been since they made making crystals impossible?)

    They honestly need to fix old talents before releasing new ones. That being said, I enjoy chain slash skills, but I will be stuck without some due to my choice in starting as an archer and having no str and defense.
  • EllisyaEllisya
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,525
    Posts: 485
    Member
    Let them play whatever they want to try.
    Either way there aren't that many new players after all.....
  • lceCreamlceCream
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,205
    Posts: 199
    Member
    Chakylin wrote: »
    I don't agree with having talents behind a level wall. I'm also not saying it shouldn't be a talent beginners can choose. I think it needs to be taken off the beginner tab. However, I think I made some valid points that it can discourage new players, especially because of the fact that you need to have generations done to fully utilize it. Yeah they can rb in 24 hours, but I know personally, I'd be pretty bummed if something that looked so cool wasn't available for me to fully use when the game is spoon-feeding it to me to try out.

    Obviously, chain is better than a lot of older talents. No one was saying its not. I'm just pointing out that by labeling it a beginner talent, they're claiming its significantly easier than other talents (which it obviously isn't since there are plenty of vets that don't have the skill yet). They're also comparing it to Ninja and CC, which are both super easy.

    Why are you so fixated on having all the skills?
    It's recommended for beginners because it requires no skill to play since it's so powerful even without getting all the skills. Also it's cool
    If anything, having the rest of the skills locked gives the character progression and something to work towards besides stat grinding.
  • XxBearslayerxXXxBearslayerxX
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,230
    Posts: 74
    Member
    lceCream wrote: »
    This is actually a problem with a lot of what DEVcat does. They release something new, make it grossly overpowered compared to some earlier talents, then forget to even balance the talents that came before accordingly. Making the new talent much more sought after. Mabi these days is just, "Activate skill, click area, watch everything die." Rinse and repeat.

    Why bother playing the Warrior talent when you can get better (and faster) results playing as a Chain Slasher?

    Fix your game DEV.

    I see warriors and mages all the time. Archers and alchemists, however... they're extinct

    Me: Warrior/Alchemist/Chainslasher
  • GretaGreta
    Mabinogi Rep: 51,805
    Posts: 6,975
    Member
    lceCream wrote: »
    I see warriors and mages all the time. Archers and alchemists, however... they're extinct

    That's because Archery and Alchemy needs revamp really bad. Like seriously, you still get requirements to make crystals, which most of them are useless now and other very irrelevant skills. Archery is weak/broke talent as well...
  • Momma_SophieMomma_Sophie
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,575
    Posts: 290
    Member
    edited December 28, 2017
    Speaking as someone under 1000 and that has been under 1000 for about two years this coming January, I have to say that I personally find that this talent is not very difficult to get a grasp of.

    I have surveyed the general newbie populace and found that they generally think the talent is fun. But, this is not the point I want to make...
    Not only do you need to complete a story line, you have to make sure you're finished with g20 (which isn't offered to characters under level 500) and can hold your own in the Baltane missions to work on getting Raging Spike and Bachram Explosion.

    There are a couple of problems here:
    1. You can attempt g19 (and thus g20 by extension upon completing g19) starting from lvl 20, according to this source: "You may start Generation 19 after reaching level 20, but it is suggested to do the other Mainstream Quests to understand the story more."

    2. The Baltane missions seem to also have a similar setup to the "Shadow Mission" layout in that they also seem to scale in accordance with a player's cumulative level. I could be wrong here, but I am going by what I read from players above 1000 and compared their experiences to my own as a player under 1000.
    On top of that, beginners won't exactly be able to solo Coill Abyss and farm hornets/ancients for the crystals needed for Spinning Slasher.

    I am going to guess that you are making this point on basis of an assumption, which seems to be that all beginners lack the power to either pass Coill Abyss or the savvy/marketing abilities to eventually acquire enough gold to buy those particular crystal (respectively selling at 1,000,000 and ~650,000 gold on Tarlach server, at least -- by the way, I was able to get through Coill Abyss and I know some people more than double my level that still cannot complete it). Some of this just boils down to actual skill and savviness as a player rather than just levels.

    I will agree that there are some beginners that cannot do either of these things, but those particular beginners usually are the ones that never took the time to train their skills, gather enough AP for the skills they plan to use, or do any of the previous mainstream quests that ultimately help them fight tougher enemies.
    I'm worried about the (few) new players we get getting discouraged when they pick this as their first talent.

    I have no idea where your worry comes from, but your concerns seem based upon a subjective interpretation of what you see as difficult. As previous players here have stated, some people that find the talent difficult to use will simply avoid using it (temporarily, maybe) until they figure themselves ready to attempt the talent once more. Being able to rebirth into a new active talent on the daily basis fixes this problem.

    Long story short: if a player gets discouraged overall because one out of twenty talents proves too difficult for them to either acquire skills within or train, then they probably should stop playing this game entirely and move on.
    Not only that, it makes Chain seem easier than other talents like Fighter and Archery, both of which are suitable to new players and do not require main storyline completion.

    A decent portion of Chain Slash Talent skills do not require completion of anything except the side-story and equipping a Chain blade.
    Placing a few select skills behind certain challenges seems to be a strategy used by the developers to give these newer players incentive to get stronger and pursue a few goals.

    In any case, labeling something a "beginner" talent does not necessarily equate to something being "easier." The word "begin" means "to start" and they are simply saying that Chain Blade is a great place to start as a talent considering its usability as a Dex/Luck focused talent (not like archery as it goes without the complications of missing shots and needing backup strategies/talents/weapons for when enemies get too close).
    I agree with them, if this is the case.
    KakiPi
  • Pip-BoyPip-Boy
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,760
    Posts: 127
    Member
    Alchemy is just magic but weaker because of the long chain cylinder cooldown. It has some utility you might see being used in conjunction with magic or melee (for giants). You need to dump huge amounts of gold into archery to make it competitive, but it's very strong once you do.
  • ZelfalZelfal
    Mabinogi Rep: 745
    Posts: 22
    Member
    Its personal opinion about how a skill set is shown, however damage wise I think it is lacking on chars that do not have dex or luck up (such as new players) yeah the weapon its self has a high damage rate higher then some 2 handers yet a newer player wont beable to hit the massive damage someone who did other talents first can (cause they dont have large amounts of Dex). Archery is broken in the fact that the aiming speed is terrible and makes using it a game of chance not to mention on Dex capped players it is still weaker then Chain blade. Alchemy relies more on skill rank, Health, Mana, and Stamina which atm is kinda pretty good if u have them raised pretty high but not the strongest or most reliable talent. Personally I still find warrior and knight to be the best starting classes in the game and best suited to my play style due to the basic combat style that can be used in almost every skill set. Besides new players/chars can try out a talent without actually rbing into it by talking to Tin and even if they do try it out it can be changed to another talent shortly from beginner Perks.
    Nexon may move it to another tab after the hype starts to go down but new skills will always be flaunted.

    Also Im a giant main and the only thing I have found good about getting this skill set unlocked is the full recovery that happens no matter fighting style can make game slightly easier maybe.
This discussion has been closed.