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REMOVE CHAIN AS A BEGINNER TALENT DURING REBIRTH

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  • Momma_SophieMomma_Sophie
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,785
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    edited December 28, 2017
    Speaking as someone under 1000 and that has been under 1000 for about two years this coming January, I have to say that I personally find that this talent is not very difficult to get a grasp of.

    I have surveyed the general newbie populace and found that they generally think the talent is fun. But, this is not the point I want to make...
    Not only do you need to complete a story line, you have to make sure you're finished with g20 (which isn't offered to characters under level 500) and can hold your own in the Baltane missions to work on getting Raging Spike and Bachram Explosion.

    There are a couple of problems here:
    1. You can attempt g19 (and thus g20 by extension upon completing g19) starting from lvl 20, according to this source: "You may start Generation 19 after reaching level 20, but it is suggested to do the other Mainstream Quests to understand the story more."

    2. The Baltane missions seem to also have a similar setup to the "Shadow Mission" layout in that they also seem to scale in accordance with a player's cumulative level. I could be wrong here, but I am going by what I read from players above 1000 and compared their experiences to my own as a player under 1000.
    On top of that, beginners won't exactly be able to solo Coill Abyss and farm hornets/ancients for the crystals needed for Spinning Slasher.

    I am going to guess that you are making this point on basis of an assumption, which seems to be that all beginners lack the power to either pass Coill Abyss or the savvy/marketing abilities to eventually acquire enough gold to buy those particular crystal (respectively selling at 1,000,000 and ~650,000 gold on Tarlach server, at least -- by the way, I was able to get through Coill Abyss and I know some people more than double my level that still cannot complete it). Some of this just boils down to actual skill and savviness as a player rather than just levels.

    I will agree that there are some beginners that cannot do either of these things, but those particular beginners usually are the ones that never took the time to train their skills, gather enough AP for the skills they plan to use, or do any of the previous mainstream quests that ultimately help them fight tougher enemies.
    I'm worried about the (few) new players we get getting discouraged when they pick this as their first talent.

    I have no idea where your worry comes from, but your concerns seem based upon a subjective interpretation of what you see as difficult. As previous players here have stated, some people that find the talent difficult to use will simply avoid using it (temporarily, maybe) until they figure themselves ready to attempt the talent once more. Being able to rebirth into a new active talent on the daily basis fixes this problem.

    Long story short: if a player gets discouraged overall because one out of twenty talents proves too difficult for them to either acquire skills within or train, then they probably should stop playing this game entirely and move on.
    Not only that, it makes Chain seem easier than other talents like Fighter and Archery, both of which are suitable to new players and do not require main storyline completion.

    A decent portion of Chain Slash Talent skills do not require completion of anything except the side-story and equipping a Chain blade.
    Placing a few select skills behind certain challenges seems to be a strategy used by the developers to give these newer players incentive to get stronger and pursue a few goals.

    In any case, labeling something a "beginner" talent does not necessarily equate to something being "easier." The word "begin" means "to start" and they are simply saying that Chain Blade is a great place to start as a talent considering its usability as a Dex/Luck focused talent (not like archery as it goes without the complications of missing shots and needing backup strategies/talents/weapons for when enemies get too close).
    I agree with them, if this is the case.
    KakiPi
  • Pip-BoyPip-Boy
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    Alchemy is just magic but weaker because of the long chain cylinder cooldown. It has some utility you might see being used in conjunction with magic or melee (for giants). You need to dump huge amounts of gold into archery to make it competitive, but it's very strong once you do.
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
    Mabinogi Rep: 13,015
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    edited December 28, 2017
    If you were genuinely concerned with the story; you'd be angry because new players are automatically granted basic combat skills, no matter which talent they choose. Oh no. Don't be mad because they don't have to learn Combat Mastery, or learn Smash, or learn Windmill, or learn Defense, or learn Counterattack,.. the original way. ~ Nope; "be mad" because they can choose "Chain Slasher" as a first talent. ~ /facepaw

    Not only do they learn the basics automatically; they can't choose not to. (Gone are the days of making a new player without combat skills).

  • ZelfalZelfal
    Mabinogi Rep: 745
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    Its personal opinion about how a skill set is shown, however damage wise I think it is lacking on chars that do not have dex or luck up (such as new players) yeah the weapon its self has a high damage rate higher then some 2 handers yet a newer player wont beable to hit the massive damage someone who did other talents first can (cause they dont have large amounts of Dex). Archery is broken in the fact that the aiming speed is terrible and makes using it a game of chance not to mention on Dex capped players it is still weaker then Chain blade. Alchemy relies more on skill rank, Health, Mana, and Stamina which atm is kinda pretty good if u have them raised pretty high but not the strongest or most reliable talent. Personally I still find warrior and knight to be the best starting classes in the game and best suited to my play style due to the basic combat style that can be used in almost every skill set. Besides new players/chars can try out a talent without actually rbing into it by talking to Tin and even if they do try it out it can be changed to another talent shortly from beginner Perks.
    Nexon may move it to another tab after the hype starts to go down but new skills will always be flaunted.

    Also Im a giant main and the only thing I have found good about getting this skill set unlocked is the full recovery that happens no matter fighting style can make game slightly easier maybe.
  • BuffalosBuffalos
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    So I did some math on stats and got a quick and dirty comparison of weapon attack growth between chain slash and close combat
    e648b55beffc33d9e022b7c56df84fac.png
    It's incomplete and all, but there are two things I want to point out:
    1) AP costs
    2) Max damage growth from stats

    An elf going into close combat and grabbing a mace will get nearly double the stat damage growth at almost half the AP cost than if they went into just chain slash. The issue with dual stat talents is that the skills give very little stat points to boost weapon damage in comparison to single stat weapons, and this talent is especially bad for new players because basic utility AoE skills are locked behind a quest that no new player can complete. Sure they could branch out a little (and they should!), but they will have spent possibly 600 levels in a talent to gain maybe 10 points of max damage on a weapon and gain not much for other talents. It's laughable and pathetic.

    From what I can gather, Nexon just blindly throws any new talent into this beginner tab without thinking at all. IF SEPARATING NEW TALENTS FROM OLD IS SOMETHING YOU WANT TO DO, MAKE A DEDICATED TAB CALLED "NEW" INSTEAD OF MISLEADING PRECIOUS NEW PLAYERS INTO SOMETHING THEY CANNOT PROGRESS WELL WITH LONG-TERM.
    GretaSherri
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    edited December 29, 2017
    @Buffalos ~ /facepaw :sleeping:
    Buffalos wrote: »
    So I did some math on stats and got a quick and dirty comparison of weapon attack growth between chain slash and close combat
    e648b55beffc33d9e022b7c56df84fac.png
    It's incomplete and all, but there are two things I want to point out:
    1) AP costs
    2) Max damage growth from stats

    An elf going into close combat and grabbing a mace will get nearly double the stat damage growth at almost half the AP cost than if they went into just chain slash. The issue with dual stat talents is that the skills give very little stat points to boost weapon damage in comparison to single stat weapons, and this talent is especially bad for new players because basic utility AoE skills are locked behind a quest that no new player can complete. Sure they could branch out a little (and they should!), but they will have spent possibly 600 levels in a talent to gain maybe 10 points of max damage on a weapon and gain not much for other talents. It's laughable and pathetic.

    From what I can gather, Nexon just blindly throws any new talent into this beginner tab without thinking at all. IF SEPARATING NEW TALENTS FROM OLD IS SOMETHING YOU WANT TO DO, MAKE A DEDICATED TAB CALLED "NEW" INSTEAD OF MISLEADING PRECIOUS NEW PLAYERS INTO SOMETHING THEY CANNOT PROGRESS WELL WITH LONG-TERM.
    You may as well add those stats together. (Chain Slasher + Close Combat)
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    (Gone are the days of making a new player without combat skills).
    Even if we skip the tutorial. :sleeping:

  • BuffalosBuffalos
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    You may as well add those stats together. (Chain Slasher + Close Combat)
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    (Gone are the days of making a new player without combat skills).
    Even if we skip the tutorial. :sleeping:

    From what I recall, new tutorial teaches smash, defense, counter, windmill, and combat mastery right? Only CM and counter will contribute to chain slash's max attack so let's just add those in for you. 26 dex and 13 max from CM will result in 26 additional max attack for chain slash combined. That's now 89 max attack for 3 thousand AP, versus 109 for 1.6 thousand AP.
    My point that the AP cost is waaay too high for your stat return in the weapon is still there.
  • CaissaCaissa
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    After some time to consider it, I would definitely recommend beginners try this talent. Bachram Boost seems like an incredibly useful tool for new players to have, especially if they don't even have traditional Transformation skills yet. The attack skills that are just handed to you provide plenty of attacking options and disruption.

    Also, so long as we are considering beginners, I don't think assuming numbers like 1.6k AP is appropriate. It is possible to reach that number while under cumulative 1000 but by that point it shouldn't matter what the game is recommending as a starting talent. I think the stat gain from leveling up and being in the right talent is the more important consideration for the actual beginners.
  • SebastianSebastian
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    While players honestly should and do have the freedom to choose whichever talent they begin with (aside from Adventurer, which will be integrated later in my argument), there are, as in many other situations, more beneficial and growth-inducing options that should be utilized before moving onto other talents. This is also the sub-nature of the game, evident in many different skills for different talents, similar to how certain Music-based skills assist with empowering Intelligence for magic power, and so on. With Chainslash (Dex and Luck) this is also true, but found in more niche skills that not every newbie would find too thrilling as a starting experience, like life skills. There is of course archery if you're into... that. Or puppetry, of course. If I recall correctly and my investigation is correct, these are where a bulk of player's dex is obtained, meaning it would be more efficient or beneficial to focus on these talents/skills before advancing to chainslash. The argument has been made that because basic close combat is forced onto each player at the beginning that it should be enough to outweigh the travesty that would be chain's related stats, and to that I ask if Adventurer would be a viable option regarding that mindset? Of course not. You're actually prohibited from selecting it at the start of your journey. Basic close combat won't solve all your problems. There are several talents that prove this, Magic being one of them. Ever seen someone smash a monster with a staff? It isn't optimal.

    And through that we find what's truly important here- not if it's possible, but if it's helpful. And in the long run, you really should focus on talents that provide what would be necessary for proper usage of Chainslash, especially considering its stat combination. It's not like basic close combat where that's mostly what you'd need for building your strength. Chain will not efficiently grow with you despite rewarding the stats necessary for strengthened usage at a low boost. Hell, if you want to, focus archery/puppetry primarily with chainslash on the side. Just don't make it your primary while you're growing.

    Also, final note, choosing a talent with skills locked behind certain requirements and elongated quests is never a good idea for a starter talent- the same goes for fighter. I'd rather have a talent where the skills are quite easy to obtain to the point I can get them with a week's work and have all I need to level up rather than having to perform ludicrous missions to obtain them all before I can even power them up with AP (there's a lot of bitterness and experience from fighter here). That's all, disagree or agree, this is my stance.
    YokkaichiGretaSherri
  • lceCreamlceCream
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,205
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    edited December 31, 2017
    Buffalos wrote: »
    So I did some math on stats and got a quick and dirty comparison of weapon attack growth between chain slash and close combat
    e648b55beffc33d9e022b7c56df84fac.png
    It's incomplete and all, but there are two things I want to point out:
    1) AP costs
    2) Max damage growth from stats

    An elf going into close combat and grabbing a mace will get nearly double the stat damage growth at almost half the AP cost than if they went into just chain slash. The issue with dual stat talents is that the skills give very little stat points to boost weapon damage in comparison to single stat weapons, and this talent is especially bad for new players because basic utility AoE skills are locked behind a quest that no new player can complete. Sure they could branch out a little (and they should!), but they will have spent possibly 600 levels in a talent to gain maybe 10 points of max damage on a weapon and gain not much for other talents. It's laughable and pathetic.

    From what I can gather, Nexon just blindly throws any new talent into this beginner tab without thinking at all. IF SEPARATING NEW TALENTS FROM OLD IS SOMETHING YOU WANT TO DO, MAKE A DEDICATED TAB CALLED "NEW" INSTEAD OF MISLEADING PRECIOUS NEW PLAYERS INTO SOMETHING THEY CANNOT PROGRESS WELL WITH LONG-TERM.
    Not everything is about stats. In fact, stats should be the last thing a beginner would want to worry about.
    There's also weapon damage, the skill % and ease of use
    Chain sweep alone makes the skill set worth while. MASSIVE AOE and 680%
    I tried using r1 kunai storm/crash shot/wm after getting used to chain sweep and it was pathetic
    Hardmuscle
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    edited December 31, 2017
    @Buffalos ~ The linked screenshots begin from creation. ~ Doing nothing for it, I learned Combat Mastery upon entry into the tutorial (as soon as I entered the game); and then I learned Defense, Smash, Counterattack, Assault Slash and Windmill upon arrival in Tir Chonaill. (all without ever laying my hands on a weapon). I get what you're saying about AP, but that factor doesn't ruin the game or make things more difficult for the player (no more so than any other talent, or skill set). All I'm saying is they won't be without the basics if they choose to be a Chain Slasher first. ~ The fact being overlooked by everyone here (despite being said multiple times by myself) is the user isn't stuck with their choice for more than 24 hours after making it. ~ Unlike the past, where choosing a talent (or destiny) you didn't like could've taken a week or three weeks to correct. ~ People are acting like this is a "once-in-a-lifetime-game-breaking mechanic" being piled on top of innocent people who might quit playing the game. ~ and this gives the impression there's a lot of people who forgot what it's like to play the game without Talents to reduce their training. *

    *Talents (while there and useful and forced) are not a requirement to learn skills or to play the game and enjoy it.
    Sebastian wrote: »
    choosing a talent with skills locked behind certain requirements and elongated quests is never ......
    Close Combat falls into that category as well.

  • SebastianSebastian
    Mabinogi Rep: 6,630
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    edited December 31, 2017
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    Sebastian wrote: »
    choosing a talent with skills locked behind certain requirements and elongated quests is never ......
    Close Combat falls into that category as well.
    Interesting how that's all you quote from me... anyway...

    Close combat isn't a 10+ mission questline for each skill or an overly complicated requirement that you slave away at or spill millions on :*

    Besides, you were regarding basic close combat. Can't change the stance midway through. And I was encouraging doing puppetry or archery. Not the entire close combat line.
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    edited December 31, 2017
    @Sebastian
    Sebastian wrote: »
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    Sebastian wrote: »
    choosing a talent with skills locked behind certain requirements and elongated quests is never ......
    Close Combat falls into that category as well.
    Interesting how that's all you quote from me... anyway...

    Close combat isn't a 10+ mission questline for each skill or an overly complicated requirement that you slave away at or spill millions on :*

    Besides, you were regarding basic close combat. Can't change the stance midway through.
    There are only 3 available Talents for a new player on first rebirth. ~ Fighter, Close Combat, and Chain Slasher. It doesn't matter what I was regarding in my previous replies. I was referring to the Close Combat Talent in my reply to you. ~ How much was AR when it came out?

    :star: Newsflash! ~ We can obtain the Chain Slasher skillset without the Talent (this isn't the end of the world we're talking about here). :star:

  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    edited December 31, 2017
    @Buffalos ~ This is the real reason they want to remove Chain Slasher from Begginner Talents. :trollface: :smirk:

    jDqqRZG.jpg

  • BuffalosBuffalos
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    lceCream wrote: »
    Not everything is about stats. In fact, stats should be the last thing a beginner would want to worry about.
    There's also weapon damage, the skill % and ease of use
    Chain sweep alone makes the skill set worth while. MASSIVE AOE and 680%
    I tried using r1 kunai storm/crash shot/wm after getting used to chain sweep and it was pathetic
    1) My post pointed out the lack of weapon damage growth within the skill set alone and how much AP and total levels it costs.
    2) If skill damage is the reason you recommend a talent to a new player, you're doing them a disservice.
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    The linked screenshots begin from creation. ~ Doing nothing for it, I learned Combat Mastery upon entry into the tutorial (as soon as I entered the game); and then I learned Defense, Smash, Counterattack, Assault Slash and Windmill upon arrival in Tir Chonaill. (all without ever laying my hands on a weapon). I get what you're saying about AP, but that factor doesn't ruin the game or make things more difficult for the player (no more so than any other talent, or skill set). All I'm saying is they won't be without the basics if they choose to be a Chain Slasher first. ~ The fact being overlooked by everyone here (despite being said multiple times by myself) is the user isn't stuck with their choice for more than 24 hours after making it. ~ Unlike the past, where choosing a talent (or destiny) you didn't like could've taken a week or three weeks to correct. ~ People are acting like this is a "once-in-a-lifetime-game-breaking mechanic" being piled on top of innocent people who might quit playing the game. ~ and this gives the impression there's a lot of people who forgot what it's like to play the game without Talents to reduce their training. *
    Every new player I've met has hard-focused their first talent's skills for a nice time after character creation. It doesn't matter which talent they picked, they stuck with it for a while until they decided to pick up something else. The issue with this mentality and dual stat talents is that dual stat talents give very little stat points per AP spent, resulting in little growth for more levels gained and the appearance of wasted time.
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    There are only 3 available Talents for a new player on first rebirth. ~ Fighter, Close Combat, and Chain Slasher. It doesn't matter what I was regarding in my previous replies. I was referring to the Close Combat Talent in my reply to you. ~ How much was AR when it came out?

    :star: Newsflash! ~ We can obtain the Chain Slasher skillset without the Talent (this isn't the end of the world we're talking about here). :star:
    Here's where close combat (or any other talent, for that matter) and chain slash really differ mechanically: chain slash has nearly half of all the skills locked behind side quests. Sure some of them are easy, but some of them also aren't doable by new players. Dorcha crystals for spinning slasher require coil abyss runs, death mark needs peaca runs (though party play is allowed so that helps), bacharm explosion requires spinning slasher to start the quest, and the others are RNG drops or fetch quests. The "it's just like AR pages!" argument literally doesn't work when half your talent is AR pages or similarly daunting hunts.
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    This is the real reason they want to remove Chain Slasher from Begginner Talents. :trollface: :smirk:

    And this is helpful to the thread why, exactly?
    Sherri
  • lceCreamlceCream
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    Buffalos wrote: »
    1) My post pointed out the lack of weapon damage growth within the skill set alone and how much AP and total levels it costs.
    2) If skill damage is the reason you recommend a talent to a new player, you're doing them a disservice.

    Here's where close combat (or any other talent, for that matter) and chain slash really differ mechanically: chain slash has nearly half of all the skills locked behind side quests. Sure some of them are easy, but some of them also aren't doable by new players. Dorcha crystals for spinning slasher require coil abyss runs, death mark needs peaca runs (though party play is allowed so that helps), bacharm explosion requires spinning slasher to start the quest, and the others are RNG drops or fetch quests. The "it's just like AR pages!" argument literally doesn't work when half your talent is AR pages or similarly daunting hunts.

    It's the UTILITY and DAMAGE that makes it good
    It's range which makes it safer than melee, and always hits which makes it safer than archery
    It has the best aoe and safest single target

    Chain only needs 2 skills to function: chain sweep and chain impale/crush (and snatch for auto attack). The rest are just extras
    Spinning slash does nothing, it's just for stats. Explosion does nothing, again just for stats.
    Unlike mage, chain doesn't need the locked skills
    Hardmuscle
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    edited December 31, 2017
    @Buffalos ~ It's relevant to the thread because removal of Chain Slash from beginner talent choices will remove the Beginner Cardinal Chain Blade (1 gold repair per point at 100%) from the reward pool for a new user's first rebirth (they can still choose it from the second tab either way). As I said 10 other times. A new user can rebirth (change their talent) 24 hours after doing it the first time. Please remove the broom from your ass and step down from your pedestal. ~ Thanks.

  • SebastianSebastian
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    Please remove the broom from your a** and step down from your pedestal. ~ Thanks.

    There's no need to get aggressive, we're trying to have a civil conversation. Just because people have a different opinion from yours doesn't give you the right to put them down for their beliefs.
    Sherri
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    edited December 31, 2017
    Sebastian wrote: »
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    Please remove the broom from your a** and step down from your pedestal. ~ Thanks.
    There's no need to get aggressive, we're trying to have a civil conversation. Just because people have a different opinion from yours doesn't give you the right to put them down for their beliefs.
    When I posted the picture; it wasn't about a stat war with "Buffalos, the King of Errin", or anyone's real or actual beliefs (aside from those with a strong concern for repair costs). People are acting as though this is a game-breaking-end-of-the-world-thing; as though Talents are all this game is about and are pretending (for who knows what reason) "we must have a specific Talent, over all others" to play the game properly.

    Did you know we can obtain the Chain Slasher skills without the Talent? ~ Yup! ~ Just like every other skill in the game! :expressionless:
    P.S. ~ The word ass is not filtered on this forum. (You chose to filter it manually). If Mabinogi is a rated game, it's Rated PG13 ... not G.

  • BuffalosBuffalos
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    Sebastian wrote: »
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    Please remove the broom from your a** and step down from your pedestal. ~ Thanks.
    There's no need to get aggressive, we're trying to have a civil conversation. Just because people have a different opinion from yours doesn't give you the right to put them down for their beliefs.
    When I posted the picture; it wasn't about a stat war with "Buffalos, the King of Errin", or anyone's real or actual beliefs.
    Life advice for ya: when you bust in with "GET THAT STICK OUTTA YA REAR" you're pretty much trying to start somethin' about their beliefs.
    Hardmuscle wrote:
    Did you know we can obtain the Chain Slasher skills without the Talent? ~ Yup! ~ Just like every other skill in the game!
    Bufflos wrote:
    Every new player I've met has hard-focused their first talent's skills for a nice time after character creation.
    The issue isn't that you're locked into the talent or lack training bonuses for other skills. The issue is that most new players don't know to branch out into other stuff and 'lock themselves' into their first talent for a while and focusing in on a talent that has half the skills locked behind massive progress walls for newbies isn't ideal. What if they assume the rest of the game is like that? That all skills are locked behind content that they can't complete without years of work put into their character? They'll most probably give up and leave the game because they have made zero attachments to it.
    GretaLidrster
This discussion has been closed.