Check out all of the details of this month's Patch Notes, featuring the Quality of Life Update! https://mabinogi.nexon.net/news/76725/september-quality-of-life-updates
[NEW MILLETIANS] Please note that all new forum users have to be approved before posting. This process can take up to 24 hours, and we appreciate your patience.
If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the Nexon Forums Code of Conduct. You have to register before you can post, so you can log in or create a forum name above to proceed. Thank you for your visit!

Multi-clienters ruining/abusing events

Comments

  • BuffalosBuffalos
    Mabinogi Rep: 9,795
    Posts: 797
    Member
    Arjune wrote: »
    that's assuming everyone has cell phones... which I certainly don't
    If a MMO's target audience is rather casual free-to-players, I'd say it's "fairly likely" that the player base will have a functional cell phone number for verification. If I can be blunt, the year -is- 2018: it's rather safe to assume most people with a steady internet connection in America has some sort of text messaging phone.
    From what I read, most Korean games and online services require a RRN to register (Korean version of SSN, also colloquially called KSSN) to comply with their Cyber Anti-Defamation laws, which forbid making anonymous comments.
    From my memory, South Korea moved away from using KSSNs for game verification due to some other concerns with the practice. They moved to Korean cell numbers, I think?
    Finity wrote: »
    Even if they are afking with 10 mabi open for approx 2 hour 30 min for 100 accounts that's gonna take whole day and night- although having 10 mabi open in one pc is impossible. Even if they could, having 10 mabi open 23 hours per day will destroy the botter's computer pretty fast.
    So does that risk make it okay for cheaters to do this? I'm really confused on why you're bringing that up, especially since multiclienting requires heavy mods and nothing is stopping the abuser from just modding all visuals away so that the client uses minimal resources.
  • WolfandWolfWolfandWolf
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,890
    Posts: 786
    Member
    Buffalos wrote: »
    Arjune wrote: »
    that's assuming everyone has cell phones... which I certainly don't
    If a MMO's target audience is rather casual free-to-players, I'd say it's "fairly likely" that the player base will have a functional cell phone number for verification. If I can be blunt, the year -is- 2018: it's rather safe to assume most people with a steady internet connection in America has some sort of text messaging phone.

    But not everyone who plays Nexon NA is in America. We have our friends in Europe and Oceania. Would they have different rules for these players?
  • BuffalosBuffalos
    Mabinogi Rep: 9,795
    Posts: 797
    Member
    Buffalos wrote: »
    Arjune wrote: »
    that's assuming everyone has cell phones... which I certainly don't
    If a MMO's target audience is rather casual free-to-players, I'd say it's "fairly likely" that the player base will have a functional cell phone number for verification. If I can be blunt, the year -is- 2018: it's rather safe to assume most people with a steady internet connection in America has some sort of text messaging phone.

    But not everyone who plays Nexon NA is in America. We have our friends in Europe and Oceania. Would they have different rules for these players?
    International texting is a thing.
  • WolfandWolfWolfandWolf
    Mabinogi Rep: 5,890
    Posts: 786
    Member
    Buffalos wrote: »
    Buffalos wrote: »
    Arjune wrote: »
    that's assuming everyone has cell phones... which I certainly don't
    If a MMO's target audience is rather casual free-to-players, I'd say it's "fairly likely" that the player base will have a functional cell phone number for verification. If I can be blunt, the year -is- 2018: it's rather safe to assume most people with a steady internet connection in America has some sort of text messaging phone.

    But not everyone who plays Nexon NA is in America. We have our friends in Europe and Oceania. Would they have different rules for these players?
    International texting is a thing.

    I wasn't saying that they don't have cell phones, but are there legal ramifications for a company officially collecting foreign cell phone numbers?
  • BlissfulkillBlissfulkill
    Mabinogi Rep: 24,300
    Posts: 2,793
    Member
    How do you have 100 instances of Mabinogi open on any one computer and not have the computer be utterly destroyed? Let us be real here.
    WolfandWolfFinitySherri
  • BuffalosBuffalos
    Mabinogi Rep: 9,795
    Posts: 797
    Member
    I wasn't saying that they don't have cell phones, but are there legal ramifications for a company officially collecting foreign cell phone numbers?
    I'm not versed in law, so I wouldn't know. I'm pretty sure that other companies have done it in the past, so I don't -think- there's anything preventing it other than safe storage and no misuse of the data?
    WolfandWolf
  • MirralChanMirralChan
    Mabinogi Rep: 1,235
    Posts: 72
    Member
    People like me who don't want a cell phone nor want to get one would just quit then cause if a cellphone is req i would just leave thus dwindling the playerbase more.

    SherriYangKoete
  • FinityFinity
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,100
    Posts: 182
    Member
    edited April 7, 2018
    Buffalos wrote: »
    So does that risk make it okay for cheaters to do this? I'm really confused on why you're bringing that up, especially since multiclienting requires heavy mods and nothing is stopping the abuser from just modding all visuals away so that the client uses minimal resources.

    How do you have 100 instances of Mabinogi open on any one computer and not have the computer be utterly destroyed? Let us be real here.

    This question pretty much explains why am I bringing this up - I am asking how its done/is it even possible, instead of just explaining it by "botting and modding" because even with botting and modding, it just seems impossible.
    Even if you have every prop either disabled or minimized having 5~10 mabi open will destroy computer. Why would anyone risk their good computer(crappy/cheap computers can't multiclient, I have old laptop and it struggles with just having 1 mabi open) to have a chance to win a virtual wing that probably costs 200~300m in game- which is nothing compared to a good computer.

    + For SIN number and phone verification ideas
    The cost and effort to implement this, the risk of having it hacked just makes it not worth it. Additionally, people always find ways around it (use of family/friends phone/SIN number, fake phone number, impersonating others SIN number) so its not guaranteed that it will work.
    Also....
    This is how KSIN numbers are on sale for 60 cents each on Chinese websites
  • BuffalosBuffalos
    Mabinogi Rep: 9,795
    Posts: 797
    Member
    edited April 7, 2018
    Finity wrote: »
    Why would anyone risk their good computer(crappy/cheap computers can't multiclient, I have old laptop and it struggles with just having 1 mabi open) to have a chance to win a virtual wing that probably costs 200~300m in game- which is nothing compared to a good computer.
    to have a chance to win a virtual wing that probably costs 200~300m in game
    You answered your own question. There were also a number of platinum hammers, which are fairly useful to a number of people and worth farming when possible. Long story short, people who cheat are stupid in more ways than one.
    I also should add that some people have a -thing- for ruining stuff for others. Mabi has a history of people like that.

  • CrimsọnCrimsọn
    Mabinogi Rep: 64,210
    Posts: 8,869
    Member
    Yeah social security numbers are a big no no. Huge security risk and potentially life ruining. Plus you could only require that from players above age 18. Suddenly you have a bunch of alts with birthdays from the 2000's. Yeah no. lol.
  • TrythisTrythis
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,170
    Posts: 153
    Member
    edited April 7, 2018
    @Buffalos I think they're referring want more in-depth explanation of it would work other than just modding/botting.

    2nd I think they're talking about even if it was possible what they were arguing against @Opalthira was that even if it was possible to stack over 100 instances of mabi into one PC that the task of keeping head count and track of the rewards wouldnt be an easy task as in it would be time consuming.

    I think @Finity was NOT condoning anything that they may be doing, your accusation that they thought it's okay for cheaters because of risk. I think they're just challenging possibility of either being able to have 100+ mabis open on one computer and/or the task of keeping an eye on all of them when things are said and done, nowhere they said it's OK for them to this.

    Breif edit: it all started because one person said it was easy to run 100 accs and another person challenged the easiness of that claim
    Finity
  • FinityFinity
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,100
    Posts: 182
    Member
    edited April 7, 2018
    Buffalos wrote: »
    Finity wrote: »
    Why would anyone risk their good computer(crappy/cheap computers can't multiclient, I have old laptop and it struggles with just having 1 mabi open) to have a chance to win a virtual wing that probably costs 200~300m in game- which is nothing compared to a good computer.
    to have a chance to win a virtual wing that probably costs 200~300m in game
    You answered your own question. There were also a number of platinum hammers, which are fairly useful to a number of people and worth farming when possible. Long story short, people who cheat are stupid in more ways than one.
    I also should add that some people have a -thing- for ruining stuff for others. Mabi has a history of people like that.
    Those plat hammers aren't even tradeable
    Are they guaranteed that they are going to win the wing? No.
    Are they guaranteed that they are going to blow up their computer? Yes.
    Would 200~300m get them a new computer? No.
    Trythis wrote: »
    @Buffalos I think they're referring want more in-depth explanation of it would work other than just modding/botting.

    2nd I think they're talking about even if it was possible what they were arguing against @Opalthira was that even if it was possible to stack over 100 instances of mabi into one PC that the task of keeping head count and track of the rewards wouldnt be an easy task as in it would be time consuming.

    I think @Finity was NOT condoning anything that they may be doing, your accusation that they thought it's okay for cheaters because of risk. I think they're just challenging possibility of either being able to have 100+ mabis open on one computer and/or the task of keeping an eye on all of them when things are said and done, nowhere they said it's OK for them to this.

    Breif edit: it all started because one person said it was easy to run 100 accs and another person challenged the easiness of that claim

    This is very correct




    Instead of making everything untradeable and punish people who wanna sell/buy event stuff(cuz not everyone get what they want) or missed event-although most event items are expireable and untradeable already
    Instead of requiring SIN verification and put everyone's personal information at risk
    Instead of requiring phone number and punish those who don't have phone
    Maybe Nexon can sort out players who have 100~200 accounts logged in with single IP and most of them are named eventalt001~200
    Idk. Just suggesting.
    ShouKTwelieSherri
  • BuffalosBuffalos
    Mabinogi Rep: 9,795
    Posts: 797
    Member
    Finity wrote: »
    Maybe Nexon can sort out players who have 100~200 accounts logged in with single IP and most of them are named eventalt001~200....
    Idk. Just suggesting.
    A post on page one kinda hit this well on the head:
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    While I can't say it doesn't bother me to see "Player001", "Player002", "Player003", "Player004", "Player005", and "Player006" all doing something together; I do understand it's not all being done on a single machine. ~ Unless you want Nexon to limit us to one connection per household; this will never change.
    Amassing alts for events isn't new either. It's been happening since the game was first released, and they have taken steps to curb it, but those steps almost always lead to other problems (innocent people being banned for suspicion of things they were not guilty of). Too many holes.

    Everyone here wants a perfect solution that'll affect only the bad people, and that simply won't happen.
    They can go thru and ban every account with a "suspicious name", and in the process ban probably hundreds of accounts who just named their free race card characters face rolled characters because they knew they wouldn't play them.
    They could watch for multiple clients logging in enmass from single IPs, but then they'll hit family homes with casual players and entirely miss the abusers who are smart enough to change their IPs and run on VPNs.
    They can make account creation a lot more strict and require secondary verification, but then you'll have a slew of people rioting on forums for that being unreasonable.

    If you seriously want this to stop, you have to remove every single incentive for people to abuse the events with multiple accounts. This could be done with untradable items, but then people would never stop crying on forums. This could be done by making the events have no good rewards, but then people would never stop crying on forums. Or this could be done by making the events actually fair, but that'd require real effort on devCAT's part and let's face it that's not happening.

    Also:
    Finity wrote: »
    Would 200~300m get them a new computer? No.
    You'd be surprised by just how wrong that statement is. No matter what server you're on.
    Jazmyn
  • FinityFinity
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,100
    Posts: 182
    Member
    edited April 7, 2018
    Buffalos wrote: »
    Finity wrote: »
    Maybe Nexon can sort out players who have 100~200 accounts logged in with single IP and most of them are named eventalt001~200....
    Idk. Just suggesting.
    A post on page one kinda hit this well on the head:
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    While I can't say it doesn't bother me to see "Player001", "Player002", "Player003", "Player004", "Player005", and "Player006" all doing something together; I do understand it's not all being done on a single machine. ~ Unless you want Nexon to limit us to one connection per household; this will never change.
    Amassing alts for events isn't new either. It's been happening since the game was first released, and they have taken steps to curb it, but those steps almost always lead to other problems (innocent people being banned for suspicion of things they were not guilty of). Too many holes.
    I said hundreds of accounts on single IP. Not a few.

    Also:
    Finity wrote: »
    Would 200~300m get them a new computer? No.
    You'd be surprised by just how wrong that statement is. No matter what server you're on.
    Lol no. It can't. I did mention about it being decent~good computer that can multiclient.
  • BuffalosBuffalos
    Mabinogi Rep: 9,795
    Posts: 797
    Member
    Finity wrote: »
    I said hundreds of accounts on single IP. Not a few.
    But then they say "hey, if I don't want to get banned I should just use <10 clients!" Then we get into an endless cycle of how low can they go before literally everyone who's playing has to be banned as Nexon lowers their standards for "multi client abuse."
    Finity wrote:
    Lol no. It can't. I did mention about it being decent~good computer that can multiclient.
    You'd be able to replace the CPU or GPU easily, which is what would blow up if someone was stupid enough to launch a hundred clients.
  • KouyioueKouyioue
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,770
    Posts: 435
    Member
    edited April 8, 2018
    blatantly obvious hyperbole aside, how many clients is "a hundred" ?

    Six?

    Eight?

    Eleven?

    Points aside, a registered nurse who dabbles in student-level HTML is not at all going to be running more alts VS. an MSDN troll with process handling experience on the same computer with only 8 gigs of ram and a quad core
  • FinityFinity
    Mabinogi Rep: 2,100
    Posts: 182
    Member
    edited April 7, 2018
    Buffalos wrote: »
    Finity wrote: »
    I said hundreds of accounts on single IP. Not a few.
    But then they say "hey, if I don't want to get banned I should just use <10 clients!" Then we get into an endless cycle of how low can they go before literally everyone who's playing has to be banned as Nexon lowers their standards for "multi client abuse."

    Then its gonna limit how many alts that they can use. Since afk events takes fair enough amount of time.
    Also they could check which accounts had logged on a single IP, not how many were logged in at certain point of time
    Even if they do less than 10 at a time, it does not change fact that they are logging on bunch of accounts on a single ip as a total

    I don't like other ideas because they're asking to basically nerf event until they are not worth it or asking for something that's not going to happen.
    You're right about no matter what people are going to complain. I'd like botters to be banned. But if Nexon can't do that, I'm fine with how it is now-except for server wide limited prize. When they start to change things around and hurt normal players, there'll be more complaints than there are now.
    ShouK
  • BuffalosBuffalos
    Mabinogi Rep: 9,795
    Posts: 797
    Member
    edited April 7, 2018
    Kouyioue wrote: »
    blatantly obvious hyperbole aside, how many clients is "a hundred" ?

    Six?

    Eight?
    The number of vanilla clients to realistically make an average computer slow down to freezing would probably be 3~5. To break it into submission? Who knows.
    But launching multiple clients can't be done in the same instance of OS without modifying the client significantly, so those guesses mean nothing.
    Finity wrote: »
    Then its gonna limit how many alts that they can use. Since afk events takes fair enough amount of time.
    Maybe all these suggestions are ruining events more than bots do, if devs take it serious- since all these people are suggesting are basically nerfing event until they are not worth it or asking for something that's not going to happen.
    Mayhaps the events shouldn't be structured like this to begin with, where if you want to get a good prize you either need to shell out a bunch of gold or use multiple accounts because the odds of you getting what you want are abysmal due to how low gacha rates are. But since that won't happen, the next best approach is either "nerfing" the event rewards or putting untradable tags on everything to make multiple account use entirely pointless.
  • OpalthiraOpalthira
    Mabinogi Rep: 7,580
    Posts: 943
    Member
    edited April 8, 2018
    Finity wrote: »
    Buffalos wrote: »
    Finity wrote: »
    I said hundreds of accounts on single IP. Not a few.
    But then they say "hey, if I don't want to get banned I should just use <10 clients!" Then we get into an endless cycle of how low can they go before literally everyone who's playing has to be banned as Nexon lowers their standards for "multi client abuse."

    Then its gonna limit how many alts that they can use. Since afk events takes fair enough amount of time.
    Also they could check which accounts had logged on a single IP, not how many were logged in at certain point of time
    Even if they do less than 10 at a time, it does not change fact that they are logging on bunch of accounts on a single ip as a total

    I don't like other ideas because they're asking to basically nerf event until they are not worth it or asking for something that's not going to happen.
    You're right about no matter what people are going to complain. I'd like botters to be banned. But if Nexon can't do that, I'm fine with how it is now-except for server wide limited prize. When they start to change things around and hurt normal players, there'll be more complaints than there are now.

    Regardless of what they do people are gonna exploit, Unless they become untradeable.
    To say otherwise just proves that you have no idea how determined people are in these kinds of games popular or otherwise.
    These items can make a single player from broke to end game... to say that they shouldnt be untradeable would be like logging on any other mmo to get full raid from pressing a "claim raid gear set". Its not challenging whats so ever. All you have to is log and afk for 3 hours at a time. Thats 100 rolls every three hours for 10 accounts.
    Putting this into account you can get 533 coins per day if you did this for 16 hours. Thats more than single person can get in an entire month let alone one day, and this event was around 30 days long. There were three weeks before the wings show up so if you did this every day you could a wooping 11,200 coins by the time those wings showed. Throw into the account that the servers started early and that the wings were gone before the server "start up time" and you got yourself no prizes for actual players. Not saying anyone did this but putting it in that perspective shows how generally unfair this event was. Literally all you had to do is afk for a weekend and have more coins than someone who farmed fairly for an entire month.
    Also who is to say that they don't have multiple pcs? I got three i can use that are more than capable of running a game old as mabi. Hell i ran Tera online with 500mb of ram and it requires 4 gbs of ram.

    At this point it just looks you are all making excuses for trying to sell events items when all we want is game breaking items to be untradeable and a fair chance at the items. Nowhere did we say we wanted to nerf the rewards in anyway (and if they did i missed it) cause making things untradeable that are worth 50+mil should have been a thing from the start and removes all the people from farming these events like this.

    Ps. Still waiting on that Unexploitable compromise that isnt making things untradeable. :)
  • BronzebreakBronzebreak
    Mabinogi Rep: 3,840
    Posts: 489
    Member
    edited April 7, 2018
    Opalthira wrote: »
    Regardless of what they do people are gonna exploit, Unless they become untradeable.
    To say otherwise just proves that you have no idea how determined people are in these kinds of games popular or otherwise.

    -snip math
    -snip rationale

    At this point it just looks you are all making excuses for trying to sell events items when all we want is game breaking items to be untradeable and a fair chance at the items. Nowhere did we say we wanted to nerf the rewards in anyway (and if they did i missed it) cause making things untradeable that are worth 50+mil should have been a thing from the start and removes all the people from farming these events like this.

    Ps. Still waiting on that Unexploitable compromise that isnt making things untradeable. :)

    May I ask that we try and keep the 1337 EDG3 out of the conversation, rather than have each group basically amount to circular logic?

    I don't want to spend hours picking apart people's arguments, and I think people would like to read that even less.

    Anyway, some options I had as an alternative;

    Ticking Quiz Bomb equivalent.
    Visual puzzle to obtain reward.
    Make all functional items of an event require a Master talent from three separate tabs (like combat, life, one other).
    Make all functional items expire, and DO NOT include an NX item to end expiration.
    Give tiered rewards (rather than a hodgepodge of different items in supposed increase in value).
    Until we're in the time period where everyone has electronic identifiers that allows them to interact with the world via unique DNA scanning, have some sort of lock on an account that requires the submission and answer of a unique riddle (don't think that there is anyone willing to come up with 'hundreds' of riddles that haven't every been used before), or use some other sort of intelligence-requiring, unique challenge.
    Make the rewards past ultra rare items and flood the streets with them.
    Just flood rewards in general, tbh.
    Require a forum account with 100+ posts (I realise that this is probably the worst suggestion).
    Require referrals from multiple other players to take part/collect better prizes in events. Any accounts that referred an account that got shut down due to being an alt will no longer be able to refer.
    Make Mabi mine NX in the background for players; utilize all resources available.
    Bloat the computer's RAM requirement (percentile based off of computer specs).
    Make the event a combat event.
    Make the event auto-kill any player AFK for more than two minutes, that does not have a referral/complete a puzzle.
    Make an account require a physical key in the form of a USB, requested by and delivered to an account. Have the key electronically reset if it ever leaves the PC.

    In general, make it not worth the time, or make the items very easily accessible, or make them niche.

    IDK man, people are arguing if it's unfair or how bad it is or if it matters or how other people's suggestions have holes, but no-one argues for the multi-clienters.