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REMOVE CHAIN AS A BEGINNER TALENT DURING REBIRTH

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  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    edited December 31, 2017
    @Buffalos ~ I posted a picture showing the repair costs of a beginner chain blade (1 gold per point is great at step 6). The repair costs are right there on the screen in front of you. (It's not about beliefs). I also included a smirk and a trollface to imply a slight of sarcasm at the end of the post. I asked you to remove the broom from your obviously over loaded with defiance "Dairy aire", because you clearly had/have a one-track mind and were/are still stuck on AP costs. None of which is remotely relevant to a user who can Rebirth (and change Talent) every 24 hours.
  • SebastianSebastian
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    edited December 31, 2017
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    People are acting as though this is a game-breaking-end-of-the-world-thing; as though Talents are all this game is about and are pretending (for who knows what reason) "we must have a specific Talent, over all others" to play the game properly.

    Disregarding your passive aggressive nature with William, no one is making it out to be an end of the world scenario so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. It was a simple discussion- maybe you feel it's suddenly an "end-of-the-world-thing", but I do believe you're significantly exaggerating what's being discussed here by thinking that, and instilling the belief that it is rather important yourself despite your saying that it isn't. Just something to keep an eye on. But this thread is getting somewhat off-topic and isn't for petty arguments, so let's get back on topic about chainslash instead of being passive aggressive. :)
    Sherri
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    edited January 1, 2018
    Sebastian wrote: »
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    People are acting as though this is a game-breaking-end-of-the-world-thing; as though Talents are all this game is about and are pretending (for who knows what reason) "we must have a specific Talent, over all others" to play the game properly.
    Disregarding your passive aggressive nature with William, no one is making it out to be an end of the world scenario so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. It was a simple discussion- maybe you feel it's suddenly an "end-of-the-world-thing", but I do believe you're significantly exaggerating what's being discussed here by thinking that, and instilling the belief that it is rather important yourself despite your saying that it isn't. Just something to keep an eye on. But this thread isn't for petty arguments, so let's get back on topic.
    When people post in ALL CAPS and BOLD, it jumps from passive to aggressive almost immediately. Who died and left you boss? :)
    Buffalos wrote: »
    IF SEPARATING NEW TALENTS FROM OLD IS SOMETHING YOU WANT TO DO, MAKE A DEDICATED TAB CALLED "NEW" INSTEAD OF MISLEADING PRECIOUS NEW PLAYERS INTO SOMETHING THEY CANNOT PROGRESS WELL WITH LONG-TERM.
    That moment when 24 hours becomes long term.

    ~ Not once... Not twice... but .. every 24 hours until the new player reaches a total level of 1000.

  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    @Chakylin @TNinja @Buffalos @Sebastian :sleeping:
    Chakylin wrote: »
    especially because of the fact that you need to have generations done to fully utilize it.
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    nomigid15 wrote: »
    some (like myself) can't even beat Barri Brown.
    Zairak wrote: »
    Barri Black is actually easier than Barri Brown.
    @nomigid15 @Zairak https://imgur.com/a/ckjFY
    Generation 1: Brown Fomor Pass (Piece of Cake). :smirk:
    CwtSqEl.jpg
    TNinja wrote: »
    The talent itself isn't even great as a starting point either.
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    nomigid15 wrote: »
    What armor do have, and how much Protection does it give? Because I can't withstand magic attacks for crap (especially alchemy attacks).
    The Adventurer's Noob Crap from Aeira. (I had, and still have, 4 Protection). :smirk:

    ~ Between 'Chain Impale' and 'Dorcha Snatch' .. Nothing stood a chance! :trollface:

    xBGgQGZ.jpg

  • BuffalosBuffalos
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    That moment when 24 hours becomes long term.
    ~ Not once... Not twice... but .. every 24 hours until the new player reaches a total level of 1000.
    Perhaps you should remove your tunnel vision blinders and actually read my posts instead of repeating the same thing over and over again.
    Buffalos wrote:
    The issue isn't that you're locked into the talent or lack training bonuses for other skills. The issue is that most new players don't know to branch out into other stuff and 'lock themselves' into their first talent for a while and focusing in on a talent that has half the skills locked behind massive progress walls for newbies isn't ideal. What if they assume the rest of the game is like that? That all skills are locked behind content that they can't complete without years of work put into their character? They'll most probably give up and leave the game because they have made zero attachments to it.
    There I even bolded the important parts that you should have read.
    Hardmuscle wrote:
    -quote snippets-
    Buffalos wrote:
    2) If skill damage is the reason you recommend a talent to a new player, you're doing them a disservice.
    Seriously it's bad enough that everyone forces the "GO HUMAN OR YOU'LL SUCK FOREVER" crap down everybody's throats. Stop trying to push newbies into metas they don't have the stats or experience to fully utilize.
    GretaSherri
  • TNinjaTNinja
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    @Chakylin @TNinja @Buffalos @Sebastian :sleeping:
    Chakylin wrote: »
    especially because of the fact that you need to have generations done to fully utilize it.
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    nomigid15 wrote: »
    some (like myself) can't even beat Barri Brown.
    Zairak wrote: »
    Barri Black is actually easier than Barri Brown.
    @nomigid15 @Zairak https://imgur.com/a/ckjFY
    Generation 1: Brown Fomor Pass (Piece of Cake). :smirk:
    CwtSqEl.jpg
    TNinja wrote: »
    The talent itself isn't even great as a starting point either.
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    nomigid15 wrote: »
    What armor do have, and how much Protection does it give? Because I can't withstand magic attacks for crap (especially alchemy attacks).
    The Adventurer's Noob Crap from Aeira. (I had, and still have, 4 Protection). :smirk:

    ~ Between 'Chain Impale' and 'Dorcha Snatch' .. Nothing stood a chance! :trollface:

    xBGgQGZ.jpg

    What were you even trying to prove here?
  • lceCreamlceCream
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    @Buffalos ~ I posted a picture showing the repair costs of a beginner chain blade (1 gold per point is great at step 6). The repair costs are right there on the screen in front of you. (It's not about beliefs). I also included a smirk and a trollface to imply a slight of sarcasm at the end of the post. I asked you to remove the broom from your obviously over loaded with defiance "Dairy aire", because you clearly had/have a one-track mind and were/are still stuck on AP costs. None of which is remotely relevant to a user who can Rebirth (and change Talent) every 24 hours.

    really? i thought beginner weap can't step upgrade
  • BuffalosBuffalos
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    lceCream wrote: »
    really? i thought beginner weap can't step upgrade

    From what I can tell, that's true. Though I think the general point was "Look at this weapon I can repair for one gold. Totally negates any counter arguments to this thread."
  • lceCreamlceCream
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    Buffalos wrote: »
    From what I can tell, that's true. Though I think the general point was "Look at this weapon I can repair for one gold. Totally negates any counter arguments to this thread."
    Well alot of beginners do complain about repair costs. This beginner weap is actually good compared to the rest of the 1g ones
    Guns and ninja don't have any 1g weap
    Hardmuscle
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    edited January 2, 2018
    @Buffalos ~ You have a lot of nerve. You really do. Just prior to a new user's very first rebirth (via the rebirth and talent quest from Duncan), they are sent to a special area (hosted by Tin) where they can try out Talents. When they're done; they can leave the map, talk to Duncan, and commence with their very first (forced) rebirth. At this time they are given the chance to choose a Talent. Their available choices are presented to them on three of four visible tabs. The First Tab says 'Starter Talent'. The Second Tab says 'Combat Talent'. The Third Tab says 'Life Talent'. The Fourth Tab says 'Hero Talent'. This entire thread is focused on the fact that Chain Slash is visible on both the First Tab and the Second Tab. You are assuming new users won't (or don't) have the brain capacity to view more than the First Tab of Talents they're presented with (despite knowing they had a chance to try each of them, just prior to said rebirth). ~ Now ...

    @TNinja ~ @lceCream ~ The beginner weapon post was made out of sarcasm; hence the reason I wasn't so friendly to Buffalos.

    I assumed it could be special upgraded (because nothing anywhere stated otherwise; and from what I've been told... it works/or worked with Beginner Maces for a Giant). If it can't be special upgraded, it's no big deal. I wasn't being serious when I posted it. As for what I meant with the posts from Barri Brown. Well, that's pretty clear if you read them. The OP of this thread said we cannot make full use of the Chain Slash skills until we've completed our generations. I'm obviously proving that to be false (and showing how the average player, who prefers Close Combat, apparently can't handle Barri Brown. Despite the map being a piece of cake for a level 39 noob player (total 44) with Chain Slash skills and crap for armor),... and Buffalos tells me I need to read what he posts..

    One more time Buffalos ~ How will moving Chain Slash out of the First Tab change anything? ~ Tell me again how dumb people are. :sleeping:

    GFrAozV.jpg
    Going back to the first page... when GandorEU said, "You think from perspective of long time player that knows the game well"... ~ I initially disagreed with that statement, because new users can rebirth daily, but now I have to turn around and agree with it too (but not for the reason they initially gave). Yeah! I think from the perspective of someone who learned their skills individually, at their leisure, without a leash.

    Back when we had to fight something to learn Combat Mastery, or "witness skills being used by mobs to learn they exist". (Defense, CA, ..).

  • BuffalosBuffalos
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    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    You have a lot of nerve. You really do.
    Said the guy who came in here gun's blazing.
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    Just prior to a new user's very first rebirth (via the rebirth and talent quest from Duncan), they are sent to a special area (hosted by Tin) where they can try out Talents. When they're done; they can leave the map, talk to Duncan, and commence with their very first (forced) rebirth. At this time they are given the chance to choose a Talent. Their available choices are presented to them on three of four visible tabs. The First Tab says 'Starter Talent'. The Second Tab says 'Combat Talent'. The Third Tab says 'Life Talent'. The Fourth Tab says 'Hero Talent'. This entire thread is focused on the fact that Chain Slash is visible on both the First Tab and the Second Tab. You are assuming new users won't (or don't) have the brain capacity to view more than the First Tab of Talents they're presented with (despite knowing they had a chance to try each of them, just prior to said rebirth).
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    One more time Buffalos ~ How will moving Chain Slash out of the First Tab change anything? ~ Tell me again how dumb people are. :sleeping:
    I'm not questioning their intelligence. If you're going to put words down my throat at least make them characteristic of myself instead of what you truly think.
    The newbie area let's the new crowd try out everything with minimal context, no bias, and no limit. It's cool and opens them up to what they can do down the road. The first talent pick is normally rather random or whatever the player thought looked better, but the rebirth screen's talent selection is supposed to better categorize the talents and let the player make a slightly more informed choice.

    If a player is brand new to a game and sees the words BEGINNER TALENT plastered on a tab in the selection screen, they'll assume that those talents are more geared towards the newbies (what a shock!). Not everyone is going to pick from the tab (which is fine), but the ones who do are going into the game thinking that their talent was made for them: someone new.
    Looking at everything I've posted, it should be clear that statement isn't the case here. 6 of the 13 skills are locked behind hunting/fetch quests that newbies cannot complete without considerable strength, the stat point gain will barely help other talents when you consider the level costs to get them, and the dangerous assumption that everything else in the game with be as much of a quest and training grind. The talent isn't meant to be an easy thing. Why are you okay with that being presented to newbies as "beginner friendly"?
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    ~ Now ...
    The beginner weapon post was made out of sarcasm; hence the reason I wasn't so friendly to Buffalos.
    The fact that you have to come in here and explain that to everyone is quite honestly pathetic. You've overused the troll face emoji on this forum so nobody ever knows when you're serious anymore.
    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    Going back to the first page... when GandorEU said, "You think from perspective of long time player that knows the game well"... ~ I initially disagreed with that statement, because new users can rebirth daily, but now I have to turn around and agree with it too (but not for the reason they initially gave). Yeah! I think from the perspective of someone who learned their skills individually, at their leisure, without a leash.
    Going to share why that is? Because from what I've seen from you here you're as hard opposed to the notion as humanly possible.
    GretaLidrster
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    edited January 3, 2018
    @Buffalos ~ Since the beginning of this thread you've been outlining what you feel is bad about Chain Slash AP or good about Close Combat.... and not a damn bit of anything you said is relevant to the topic (unless you want it locked on the second tab). Whether or not Chain Slash is good or bad makes no difference when the new user in question can rebirth every 24 hours. Yeah, I said those evil words again, and the only reason you don't like it is because you're over total level 1000 (like me and most people) and it no longer benefits you.

    Now get off your dead skin, make a new account, and live the gamestyle (as the brand new player who chose Chain Slash as their first Talent) you've been ridiculing for the past 3 pages.

    The last part of your quote stack makes no sense. I didn't agree with Gandor for the reason they initially stated. I agreed with them for the reason I stated in the post you quoted. If you break your hand and go back to the first page, you can clearly see for yourself why I didn't agree there. (A "long time player that knows the game well" is someone "who learned their skills individually, at their leisure, without a leash."). /facepaw

    The picture in my last post to you was taken from the screen of a new user during their first rebirth. (I know what it says and what's available).
    If anyone is doing anyone a disservice, it's this thread trying to "prevent" new users from acquiring Bachram's Boost through Dorcha Mastery.
    Most new users can't afford to live without Bachram. ~ because HP, MP, and SP pots cost money. ~ Remember? Money needed for repairs.
    If you don't know or understand why I use quotes around words "like this" (when they're not actually part of a quote made by someone else); Ask Lidrster to educate you on the topic of "shudder quotes" (also known as sneer quotes or scare quotes). Lid knows a lot about emphasis.
    Buffalos wrote: »
    I'm not questioning their intelligence.
    Buffalos wrote: »
    If a player is brand new to a game and sees the words BEGINNER TALENT plastered on a tab in the selection screen, they'll assume

    Hardmuscle wrote: »
    Just prior to a new user's very first rebirth (via the rebirth and talent quest from Duncan), they are sent to a special area (hosted by Tin) where they can try out Talents. When they're done; they can leave the map, talk to Duncan, and commence with their very first (forced) rebirth. At this time they are given the chance to choose a Talent.
    TyFSFAe.jpg

    :sleeping:

  • SherriSherri
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    Agreed, this is no beginner talent. What you need to do to get most of the skills.. I wonder if I can even hold my ground against them. I'm almost cumulative level 9k and I'm scared of that giant tree in Coill Abyss ;-;
    lceCream wrote: »

    I see warriors and mages all the time. Archers and alchemists, however... they're extinct

    Hi hi~
    I'm an alch. c:
    SebastianYangKoete
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    edited January 3, 2018
    The Giant Tree (Sephirot) is only for 1 skill. The harder to get skills are not necessary at the start and give you something to work for. Even if this Talent were to be locked on the Second Tab; that restriction would only be in place until the 2nd rebirth. (This debate isn't worth having).

  • DianusiaDianusia
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    https://imgur.com/Z3jSThA
    Just in case no one seen it earlier. Begginer talents aren't supposed to make you suffer.
    So, uh. I think I might say something as well, as a beginner myself?
    Remember that glorious 20 days ago when chain slash was about to be released? I was like, OH DANG.
    I said about this to my friend, and when we saw it on beginner talent list, she made up her mind that she wanted to play as Chain Slasher. And guess what.
    She does not play anymore, ESPECIALLY after questline that shows you two skills, but teaches you one skill. And how to obtain another one, you ask? Be a pro. She had hard time trying to make some storyline chain slash quests, for example beating boss. After that she had to ask friends (that was actual miracle that they agreed) to carry her through whole Peaca dungeon so she could sketch Banshee. Then was the main issue. She saw Spinning Slasher requirements. So we were like, well, if it is not possible to obtain them normally, we should buy them, right?
    But if this is a beginner talent, why new skill elements go for freaking MILIONS? Come on, Arrow Revolver and Fireball TOGETHER costs less than ONE dorcha crystal. This was the reason she thought that she cannot bear even a beginner "easy" talent. How to kill someone's self-confidence: Nexon edition.
    Also, about Baltane Missions. NAH, it is not happy-go-lucky "easy mission" at all. Even for beginners. Killing zombies is not this big deal, but this one punch bear (Beartama) is just a bit too much. Kills both your character and morale.
    Chain Slash is NOT for beginners.
    SherriGretaRihoshi
  • ApollodorusApollodorus
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    So just going to leave my two cents here, the issue with it being in the beginner tab isn't that it breaks the game or locks new players into a bad talent but rather that it is just plain misleading. New players who pick this up aren't likely to know that they've picked the hard talent, and thus waste time (amongst other potential resources) trying to raise a talent meant for players far higher than them. Unless an older player tells them that they'd be better off choosing another talent the new player will be more likely to continue trying to master the talent rather than switch over to a new one, because that is how most people start the game off. We chose the one talent we wanted and worked to complete it before moving to other talents. If a new player wants to do that with Chain Slash then that is fine, but Mabi should be upfront about the talent so they know what they are getting in for or that if they switch to another talent it will be easier.

    Also there is a lot of ground between not advertising it like it is for new players and putting a level limit on it. Accurate information is inherently better than misinformation. This talent clearly wasn't designed with new players in mind and even if the option is open to them they should be given some indication of that rather than just assuming that they'll give up and try a new talent in 24 hours or catch on via osmosis (most new players have trouble understanding the difference between talents and classes in other mmos already). True this isn't game breaking, but it isn't really good game design either.
    SherriYokkaichiGretaRihoshi
  • BuffalosBuffalos
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    Hardmuscle wrote:
    Since the beginning of this thread you've been outlining what you feel is bad about Chain Slash AP or good about Close Combat.... and not a damn bit of anything you said is relevant to the topic (unless you want it locked on the second tab).
    Earth to Hard: THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE HERE ARE WANTING. Take it off the beginner tab, read the freaking thread title.
    Hardmuscle wrote:
    Whether or not Chain Slash is good or bad makes no difference when the new user in question can rebirth every 24 hours.
    1) Daily rebirths don't fix misguidance.
    2) I actually like the daily rebirth feature. It tries to make newbies spread out more, but again MOST OF THEM FOCUS THE FIRST TALENT THEY PICK/LIKE TO NEAR COMPLETION BEFORE MOVING ON.
    Hardmuscle wrote:
    Yeah, I said those evil words again, and the only reason you don't like it is because you're over total level 1000 (like me and most people) and it no longer benefits you.
    I'm not sure where you got the pretense that I dislike the daily rebirth feature solely because "I can't use it." Are there anymore assumptions about my opinions on the game that you wish to guess incorrectly? This is turning into a running theme with you and me and it's really quite childish.
    Hardmuscle wrote:
    Now get off your dead skin, make a new account, and live the gamestyle (as the brand new player who chose Chain Slash as their first Talent) you've been ridiculing for the past 3 pages.
    I would if I weren't in classes. But how about the testament of three new players I met and two who quit the game after getting zero attachment to the game with the BS skill obtainment methods in a "beginner talent." If your beginner talent is scaring beginners off when others typically don't, it's not a beginner talent.
    Hardmuscle wrote:
    Most new users can't afford to live without Bachram. ~ because HP, MP, and SP pots cost money. ~ Remember? Money needed for repairs.
    There was a time before Bacharm, and since you're soo hell-bent on bringing that time up to defend your points on previous skill grinds it's only fair I bring that up to counter your stance on excessive cost of potions. Everyone lived through that time, and most got off fine in it (see below).
    Most NPC shop weapon/armor repairs aren't that expensive, and if anything, giving a newbie a chain blade as a main weapon is going to cost them more gold in the long run because chain blades cost 3x+ the amount of gold to repair than basic swords and bows. (Also don't forget that potions drop in decent numbers in the beginner zone dungeons and chapter 1 story dungeons, so potion money isn't going to be a super massive issue)
    Hardmuscle wrote:
    Even if this Talent were to be locked on the Second Tab; that restriction would only be in place until the 2nd rebirth. (This debate isn't worth having).
    Might be just me, but every time I rebirth my 15k+ character the talent screen defaults to the beginner tab. I'm really not sure what you're getting at there, with that observation considered.
    Dianusia wrote:
    ESPECIALLY after questline that shows you two skills, but teaches you one skill.
    This is a massive no-no with game design. You shouldn't give a player a skill in a tutorial setting and then promptly take it away upon leaving said tutorial. Add that to the pile of issues with this talent's implementation.
    SherriYokkaichiDianusiaRihoshi
  • SherriSherri
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    I know a good portion of new people would stick to their first talent.
    I know I did, I went with Puppetry and I will admit I had trouble affording it and all.
    It's just sad you assume what new people think when they first join a game, especially big as Mabinogi.
  • HardmuscleHardmuscle
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    edited January 4, 2018
    Sherri wrote: »
    It's just sad you assume what new people think
    What's sad is how I'm being pegged "assumptive" when this thread is literally based on assuming what new users will think when they rebirth for the first time. (Words have definitions for a reason).
    Buffalos wrote: »
    If a player is brand new to a game and sees the words BEGINNER TALENT plastered on a tab in the selection screen, they'll assume
    It doesn't matter what this talent does or does not do; in the short or the long run. There is nothing preventing a new user from choosing Chain Slash talent (after choosing Close Combat or Fighter) 24 hours after their first rebirth. ~ If there was; this paraplegic debate would have two working legs. ~~ I get the impression you won't be happy until it costs 39 pon on the Fourth Tab.
    Buffalos wrote: »
    Earth to Hard: THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE HERE ARE WANTING.
    I know what this thread is about and what a dozen or so people are saying they want. Despite less than half (or none) of them actually being new "or affected" players (and not the following of one supporter's guild). I know all about this community and the way people "do things"
    Buffalos wrote: »
    There was a time before Bacharm
    There was a time before Talnets
    Bachram's Boost applies to all forms of combat. You don't need a Chain Blade equipped to reap from its benefit. (It's valuable to everyone).

  • GretaGreta
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    edited January 4, 2018
    You guys keep beating the dead horse here at this point.
This discussion has been closed.