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Closed REMOVE CHAIN AS A BEGINNER TALENT DURING REBIRTH
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It's incomplete and all, but there are two things I want to point out:
1) AP costs
2) Max damage growth from stats
An elf going into close combat and grabbing a mace will get nearly double the stat damage growth at almost half the AP cost than if they went into just chain slash. The issue with dual stat talents is that the skills give very little stat points to boost weapon damage in comparison to single stat weapons, and this talent is especially bad for new players because basic utility AoE skills are locked behind a quest that no new player can complete. Sure they could branch out a little (and they should!), but they will have spent possibly 600 levels in a talent to gain maybe 10 points of max damage on a weapon and gain not much for other talents. It's laughable and pathetic.
From what I can gather, Nexon just blindly throws any new talent into this beginner tab without thinking at all. IF SEPARATING NEW TALENTS FROM OLD IS SOMETHING YOU WANT TO DO, MAKE A DEDICATED TAB CALLED "NEW" INSTEAD OF MISLEADING PRECIOUS NEW PLAYERS INTO SOMETHING THEY CANNOT PROGRESS WELL WITH LONG-TERM.
From what I recall, new tutorial teaches smash, defense, counter, windmill, and combat mastery right? Only CM and counter will contribute to chain slash's max attack so let's just add those in for you. 26 dex and 13 max from CM will result in 26 additional max attack for chain slash combined. That's now 89 max attack for 3 thousand AP, versus 109 for 1.6 thousand AP.
My point that the AP cost is waaay too high for your stat return in the weapon is still there.
Also, so long as we are considering beginners, I don't think assuming numbers like 1.6k AP is appropriate. It is possible to reach that number while under cumulative 1000 but by that point it shouldn't matter what the game is recommending as a starting talent. I think the stat gain from leveling up and being in the right talent is the more important consideration for the actual beginners.
And through that we find what's truly important here- not if it's possible, but if it's helpful. And in the long run, you really should focus on talents that provide what would be necessary for proper usage of Chainslash, especially considering its stat combination. It's not like basic close combat where that's mostly what you'd need for building your strength. Chain will not efficiently grow with you despite rewarding the stats necessary for strengthened usage at a low boost. Hell, if you want to, focus archery/puppetry primarily with chainslash on the side. Just don't make it your primary while you're growing.
Also, final note, choosing a talent with skills locked behind certain requirements and elongated quests is never a good idea for a starter talent- the same goes for fighter. I'd rather have a talent where the skills are quite easy to obtain to the point I can get them with a week's work and have all I need to level up rather than having to perform ludicrous missions to obtain them all before I can even power them up with AP (there's a lot of bitterness and experience from fighter here). That's all, disagree or agree, this is my stance.
There's also weapon damage, the skill % and ease of use
Chain sweep alone makes the skill set worth while. MASSIVE AOE and 680%
I tried using r1 kunai storm/crash shot/wm after getting used to chain sweep and it was pathetic
Close combat isn't a 10+ mission questline for each skill or an overly complicated requirement that you slave away at or spill millions on
Besides, you were regarding basic close combat. Can't change the stance midway through. And I was encouraging doing puppetry or archery. Not the entire close combat line.
2) If skill damage is the reason you recommend a talent to a new player, you're doing them a disservice.
Every new player I've met has hard-focused their first talent's skills for a nice time after character creation. It doesn't matter which talent they picked, they stuck with it for a while until they decided to pick up something else. The issue with this mentality and dual stat talents is that dual stat talents give very little stat points per AP spent, resulting in little growth for more levels gained and the appearance of wasted time.
Here's where close combat (or any other talent, for that matter) and chain slash really differ mechanically: chain slash has nearly half of all the skills locked behind side quests. Sure some of them are easy, but some of them also aren't doable by new players. Dorcha crystals for spinning slasher require coil abyss runs, death mark needs peaca runs (though party play is allowed so that helps), bacharm explosion requires spinning slasher to start the quest, and the others are RNG drops or fetch quests. The "it's just like AR pages!" argument literally doesn't work when half your talent is AR pages or similarly daunting hunts.
And this is helpful to the thread why, exactly?
It's the UTILITY and DAMAGE that makes it good
It's range which makes it safer than melee, and always hits which makes it safer than archery
It has the best aoe and safest single target
Chain only needs 2 skills to function: chain sweep and chain impale/crush (and snatch for auto attack). The rest are just extras
Spinning slash does nothing, it's just for stats. Explosion does nothing, again just for stats.
Unlike mage, chain doesn't need the locked skills
There's no need to get aggressive, we're trying to have a civil conversation. Just because people have a different opinion from yours doesn't give you the right to put them down for their beliefs.
The issue isn't that you're locked into the talent or lack training bonuses for other skills. The issue is that most new players don't know to branch out into other stuff and 'lock themselves' into their first talent for a while and focusing in on a talent that has half the skills locked behind massive progress walls for newbies isn't ideal. What if they assume the rest of the game is like that? That all skills are locked behind content that they can't complete without years of work put into their character? They'll most probably give up and leave the game because they have made zero attachments to it.
Disregarding your passive aggressive nature with William, no one is making it out to be an end of the world scenario so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. It was a simple discussion- maybe you feel it's suddenly an "end-of-the-world-thing", but I do believe you're significantly exaggerating what's being discussed here by thinking that, and instilling the belief that it is rather important yourself despite your saying that it isn't. Just something to keep an eye on. But this thread is getting somewhat off-topic and isn't for petty arguments, so let's get back on topic about chainslash instead of being passive aggressive.
Seriously it's bad enough that everyone forces the "GO HUMAN OR YOU'LL SUCK FOREVER" crap down everybody's throats. Stop trying to push newbies into metas they don't have the stats or experience to fully utilize.
What were you even trying to prove here?
really? i thought beginner weap can't step upgrade
From what I can tell, that's true. Though I think the general point was "Look at this weapon I can repair for one gold. Totally negates any counter arguments to this thread."
Guns and ninja don't have any 1g weap
I'm not questioning their intelligence. If you're going to put words down my throat at least make them characteristic of myself instead of what you truly think.
The newbie area let's the new crowd try out everything with minimal context, no bias, and no limit. It's cool and opens them up to what they can do down the road. The first talent pick is normally rather random or whatever the player thought looked better, but the rebirth screen's talent selection is supposed to better categorize the talents and let the player make a slightly more informed choice.
If a player is brand new to a game and sees the words BEGINNER TALENT plastered on a tab in the selection screen, they'll assume that those talents are more geared towards the newbies (what a shock!). Not everyone is going to pick from the tab (which is fine), but the ones who do are going into the game thinking that their talent was made for them: someone new.
Looking at everything I've posted, it should be clear that statement isn't the case here. 6 of the 13 skills are locked behind hunting/fetch quests that newbies cannot complete without considerable strength, the stat point gain will barely help other talents when you consider the level costs to get them, and the dangerous assumption that everything else in the game with be as much of a quest and training grind. The talent isn't meant to be an easy thing. Why are you okay with that being presented to newbies as "beginner friendly"?
The fact that you have to come in here and explain that to everyone is quite honestly pathetic. You've overused the troll face emoji on this forum so nobody ever knows when you're serious anymore.
Going to share why that is? Because from what I've seen from you here you're as hard opposed to the notion as humanly possible.
Hi hi~
I'm an alch. c:
Just in case no one seen it earlier. Begginer talents aren't supposed to make you suffer.
So, uh. I think I might say something as well, as a beginner myself?
Remember that glorious 20 days ago when chain slash was about to be released? I was like, OH DANG.
I said about this to my friend, and when we saw it on beginner talent list, she made up her mind that she wanted to play as Chain Slasher. And guess what.
She does not play anymore, ESPECIALLY after questline that shows you two skills, but teaches you one skill. And how to obtain another one, you ask? Be a pro. She had hard time trying to make some storyline chain slash quests, for example beating boss. After that she had to ask friends (that was actual miracle that they agreed) to carry her through whole Peaca dungeon so she could sketch Banshee. Then was the main issue. She saw Spinning Slasher requirements. So we were like, well, if it is not possible to obtain them normally, we should buy them, right?
But if this is a beginner talent, why new skill elements go for freaking MILIONS? Come on, Arrow Revolver and Fireball TOGETHER costs less than ONE dorcha crystal. This was the reason she thought that she cannot bear even a beginner "easy" talent. How to kill someone's self-confidence: Nexon edition.
Also, about Baltane Missions. NAH, it is not happy-go-lucky "easy mission" at all. Even for beginners. Killing zombies is not this big deal, but this one punch bear (Beartama) is just a bit too much. Kills both your character and morale.
Chain Slash is NOT for beginners.
Also there is a lot of ground between not advertising it like it is for new players and putting a level limit on it. Accurate information is inherently better than misinformation. This talent clearly wasn't designed with new players in mind and even if the option is open to them they should be given some indication of that rather than just assuming that they'll give up and try a new talent in 24 hours or catch on via osmosis (most new players have trouble understanding the difference between talents and classes in other mmos already). True this isn't game breaking, but it isn't really good game design either.